From phill.traveller at yarranet.net.au Mon Oct 1 07:24:52 2007 From: phill.traveller at yarranet.net.au (Phill Webb) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2007 23:24:52 +1000 Subject: [TML] Roup, Amber, Cause, Query. In-Reply-To: <50132.158.165.144.181.1191184714.squirrel@webmail.efn.org> References: <50132.158.165.144.181.1191184714.squirrel@webmail.efn.org> Message-ID: <4700F524.3010209@yarranet.net.au> royce at efn.org wrote: > Hi, All, > I hope I'm not mixing up Roup & Ruie again -- I mean the waterworld in > Regina subsector. Roup it is. > My question is, what danger makes Roup an amber zone? From memory it is a huge population crammed onto very little land. Plus a government that restricts leaving the planet. > If you happen to know what CT canon sources, if any, have plentiful > information on Roup, that knowledge, too, would be helpful. > Enlightenment welcome, as always. The big one is the Amber Zone: Foodrunner from JTAS5 (reprinted in Best Of 2) The rest of the canon mentions I have noted are minor like TNS or Library Data entries. Phill -- "2 jumps in a week, I bet you think that's pretty clever" Read my FudgeT Notes http://www.yarranet.net.au/phill/fudge/traveller/ From johnson at pharmacy.arizona.edu Mon Oct 1 13:48:04 2007 From: johnson at pharmacy.arizona.edu (Bruce Johnson) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 12:48:04 -0700 Subject: [TML] Molding Ships In-Reply-To: <46FE95E7.29630.6044081@shadow.shadowgard.com> References: , <8AE91BCC-E77F-4CF3-BAE8-6AEB5631E6F0@ceecom.net>, <46FEC6AA.70502@cox.net> <46FE95E7.29630.6044081@shadow.shadowgard.com> Message-ID: <0EE956C1-0890-422D-B786-51A80A7495C7@pharmacy.arizona.edu> On Sep 29, 2007, at 6:13 PM, shadow at shadowgard.com wrote: > > Actually, printed circuit boards could have been made well before > then. The modern "photo resist" tricks aren't necessary. > > I did my first board by using a brush to paint on the resist where I > wanted it. For mass production, a stencil and roller will work just > fine. A printing press would work just fine. see the platen jobber. > I think the hardest part is getting the copper-clad board. > Suitable materials were invented pretty early. I'd bet laquerware would suffice, shellac mixed with wood flour was being used to mold items as early as the 1850's. Gluing the metal to the substrate is old tech. All said, making the things to solder ON to your 19th century circuitboard would be rather lacking...:-) much simpler in those days to use a breadboard anyway, since at best you're going to be using discrete tubes and other components. -- Bruce Johnson University of Arizona College of Pharmacy Information Technology Group Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs From prevattec at bellsouth.net Mon Oct 1 15:21:46 2007 From: prevattec at bellsouth.net (Charles Prevatte) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 17:21:46 -0400 Subject: [TML] Molding Ships In-Reply-To: <0EE956C1-0890-422D-B786-51A80A7495C7@pharmacy.arizona.edu> Message-ID: The boards would be easy. Fenolic or Bakelite (TM) analogs applied to thin sheet copper and baked to set. Another alternative for low production runs would have been a wire wrap type system. As for bread boarding, that would work IF you mean the original meaning of the term breadboard and not the modern hobbiest meaning which would be almost as difficult to replicate as modern 4 layer eched circuit board. I do PCB board layout as part of my job. I have breadboarded (both types), wire wraped, and worked with Fenolic and Bakelite(TM) types in the past. Plus several other monster that I will not even try to discribe. You would be very surprised to see how much 60+ year old equipment is still in commercial use today. When replacing something with new would cost 1M+ that 1941 AM transmiter looks pretty good. Or that 1955 BarChucker automatic lathe. A modern replacement would cost 500,000 or more, plus retooling, recoding your parts inventory from a machine readable paper tape to a modern CNC file, and retraining your operaters. In some cases it would be cheaper to fire your workers and some of the intermediate management and hire newly trained personel for the new equipment, and then hand them a finished part made by the old machine and ask them to duplicate it without trying to resolve the problems with old numeric langauge conversions. Modern 3D laser scaners and contact scaners can really cut down on the time to code up a part, and if you have the original design specifications, with all the critical data, you can reinvent the wheel faster than you could translate to old control files. Unless there is already a translation data base for the unit you are replacing. There could be, as many companies that survived wrote them as selling points for their "new versions". That brings up one other very interest point. Mechanically many of these machines have changed very little if at all. What little change has happened has been to accomodate electronic controls (mostly positioning servo motors and sensors) IF you have a good machine shop and a good modern computer (even a laptop) an a small store of electronic parts (say what a ships stores would have or what they could fabricate with an onboard high tech automated factory, you could quickly convert a WW1 era factory into a very modern facility. Easily equal to most of those in use today. The improvements would be considerable. Part tolerences would improve by several orders of magnatude (engines would run better on less fuel), quantity of good parts would increase dramaticly, and the number of defective parts would decrease considerably. Even a fairly large factory would need only a very few "space men" to do this if they were good at their jobs. The down side would be that the machines built at this factory would be very difficult to service (if they could be serviced at all) without parts from this factory, without loosing the improments you have gained. Example, It would have been almost imposible to build usable jet engines with a 1920's era machine shop, but with modern controls added to those machines, it could be doable. At the least that machine shop could turn out Spitfires instead of Jennys. That's the difference of about 200 MPH in speed and a lot more forepower. And if the spitfires design was in the ships data banks, you would not need a prototype and redesign phase and the lest and best version could be used directly. Also you could do such things as look up the formula for TNT, C4, Simtex, non corosive gun powder, fiberglass and it's bonders, kevlar, and lots of other things that are fairly simple to make, once someone has stubled onto them in the first place. Add in some of our modern drugs (particularly antibiotics) and a very few "space men" could change the balence of power on a low tech world in a very short time. What would air dropped nepalm done to the trench warfare of WW1? Or the Gatlin gun and helecopter to WW2? Charles L. > -----Original Message----- > From: tml-bounces at travellercentral.com > [mailto:tml-bounces at travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Bruce Johnson > Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 3:48 PM > To: The Traveller Mailing List > Subject: Re: [TML] Molding Ships > > > > On Sep 29, 2007, at 6:13 PM, shadow at shadowgard.com wrote: > > > > > Actually, printed circuit boards could have been made well before > > then. The modern "photo resist" tricks aren't necessary. > > > > I did my first board by using a brush to paint on the resist where I > > wanted it. For mass production, a stencil and roller will work just > > fine. > > A printing press would work just fine. > see the platen jobber. > > > I think the hardest part is getting the copper-clad board. > > > > Suitable materials were invented pretty early. I'd bet laquerware > would suffice, shellac mixed with wood flour was being used to mold > items as early as the 1850's. History_of_Plastics.cfm> > > Gluing the metal to the substrate is old tech. > > All said, making the things to solder ON to your 19th century > circuitboard would be rather lacking...:-) much simpler in those days > to use a breadboard anyway, since at best you're going to be using > discrete tubes and other components. > > > > -- > Bruce Johnson > University of Arizona > College of Pharmacy > Information Technology Group > > Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs > > > _______________________________________________ > TML mailing list > TML at travellercentral.com > http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.36/1041 - Release Date: > 10/1/2007 10:20 AM > No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.36/1041 - Release Date: 10/1/2007 10:20 AM From shadow at shadowgard.com Mon Oct 1 16:37:48 2007 From: shadow at shadowgard.com (shadow at shadowgard.com) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2007 15:37:48 -0700 Subject: [TML] Molding Ships In-Reply-To: <0EE956C1-0890-422D-B786-51A80A7495C7@pharmacy.arizona.edu> References: , <46FE95E7.29630.6044081@shadow.shadowgard.com>, <0EE956C1-0890-422D-B786-51A80A7495C7@pharmacy.arizona.edu> Message-ID: <4701144C.25264.883F7C7@shadow.shadowgard.com> On 1 Oct 2007 at 12:48, Bruce Johnson wrote: > On Sep 29, 2007, at 6:13 PM, shadow at shadowgard.com wrote: > > > > > Actually, printed circuit boards could have been made well before > > then. The modern "photo resist" tricks aren't necessary. > > > > I did my first board by using a brush to paint on the resist where I > > wanted it. For mass production, a stencil and roller will work just > > fine. > > A printing press would work just fine. > see the platen jobber. > > > I think the hardest part is getting the copper-clad board. > > > > Suitable materials were invented pretty early. I'd bet laquerware > would suffice, shellac mixed with wood flour was being used to mold > items as early as the 1850's. History_of_Plastics.cfm> > > Gluing the metal to the substrate is old tech. The trick is finding something that won't react badly to the etching solution. And that won't come lose at a bad time. > All said, making the things to solder ON to your 19th century > circuitboard would be rather lacking...:-) much simpler in those days > to use a breadboard anyway, since at best you're going to be using > discrete tubes and other components. Printed circuits work just *fine* with tubes. But you want sockets for the tubes unless it's a "use once and toss" item like a proximity fuze. Breadboarding is fine for initial layout and testing. But a cricuit board works better for production. -- Leonard Erickson (aka shadow) shadow at shadowgard dot com From shadow at shadowgard.com Mon Oct 1 16:37:49 2007 From: shadow at shadowgard.com (shadow at shadowgard.com) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2007 15:37:49 -0700 Subject: [TML] Quick TL upgrades (was Re: Molding Ships) In-Reply-To: References: <0EE956C1-0890-422D-B786-51A80A7495C7@pharmacy.arizona.edu>, Message-ID: <4701144D.14331.883F9AB@shadow.shadowgard.com> On 1 Oct 2007 at 17:21, Charles Prevatte wrote: > As for bread boarding, that would work IF you mean the original meaning of > the term breadboard and not the modern hobbiest meaning which would be > almost as difficult to replicate as modern 4 layer eched circuit board. I've got an old amplifier that I "breadboarded" that way in electronics class. Tape a circuit diagram to a convenient size piece of plywood. Drive finishing nails where you need wires to cross, connect or turn a corner on the diagram. Solder wire between nails. Add parts with leads soldered to nails. Easy to troubleshoot, relatively easy to revise. Closest I ever came to a "modern" breadboard was a toy I picked up at OMSI back in the late 60s or early 70s. A "Denshi board", basically an enlarged version of one of those breadboards with slots to snap plastic encased parts into, and metal strips that snapped into place as wiring. Wish it hadn't gotten lost long ago. > You would be very surprised to see how much 60+ year old equipment is still > in commercial use today. No I wouldn't. :-) I used to work with a QA person who carried one of those Kurta "fishing reel" calculators. > When replacing something with new would cost 1M+ that 1941 AM transmiter > looks pretty good. For that matter, the final power stages of big transmitters are *still* tube circuits as far as I know. It's kinda hard to push 100 kW thru solid state stuff. :-) > That brings up one other very interest point. Mechanically many of these > machines have changed very little if at all. What little change has > happened has been to accomodate electronic controls (mostly positioning > servo motors and sensors) IF you have a good machine shop and a good modern > computer (even a laptop) an a small store of electronic parts (say what a > ships stores would have or what they could fabricate with an onboard high > tech automated factory, you could quickly convert a WW1 era factory into a > very modern facility. Easily equal to most of those in use today. The servos are going to be the hard part. > The improvements would be considerable. Part tolerences would improve by > several orders of magnatude (engines would run better on less fuel), > quantity of good parts would increase dramaticly, and the number of > defective parts would decrease considerably. Even a fairly large factory > would need only a very few "space men" to do this if they were good at their > jobs. The down side would be that the machines built at this factory would > be very difficult to service (if they could be serviced at all) without > parts from this factory, without loosing the improments you have gained. > > Example, It would have been almost imposible to build usable jet engines > with a 1920's era machine shop, but with modern controls added to those > machines, it could be doable. At the least that machine shop could turn out > Spitfires instead of Jennys. That's the difference of about 200 MPH in > speed and a lot more forepower. And if the spitfires design was in the > ships data banks, you would not need a prototype and redesign phase and the > lest and best version could be used directly. Yep. In fact, I daresay that such things are part of the standard "TL packs" that get used in settingh up colonies and the like. > Also you could do such things as look up the formula for TNT, C4, Simtex, > non corosive gun powder, fiberglass and it's bonders, kevlar, and lots of > other things that are fairly simple to make, once someone has stubled onto > them in the first place. And simple tech "tricks" that took centuries to work out but are *easy* to implement. Everything from efficient stove & furnace design to the trick of making lead shot in a tower. > Add in some of our modern drugs (particularly antibiotics) and a very few > "space men" could change the balence of power on a low tech world in a very > short time. Only if you can get the military to *listen*. > What would air dropped nepalm done to the trench warfare of WW1? Not as much as you'd think unless you can get the idiots running things to quit trying to use their old tactics. That's why things were so bad. They kept trying to use "mass wave" tactics against things like machine guns. > Or the Gatlin gun and helecopter to WW2? Gatlining guns date to the US Civil War. It's some modifications to the feed mechanism and adding a motor that are the big change. Helicopters are mostly targets unless you can get much better engines, in which case there are likely better uses. -- Leonard Erickson (aka shadow) shadow at shadowgard dot com From johnson at pharmacy.arizona.edu Mon Oct 1 17:25:07 2007 From: johnson at pharmacy.arizona.edu (Bruce Johnson) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 16:25:07 -0700 Subject: [TML] Molding Ships In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7EC309F4-D772-4589-9A4C-6D34F7983664@pharmacy.arizona.edu> On Oct 1, 2007, at 2:21 PM, Charles Prevatte wrote: > What would air dropped nepalm done to the trench warfare of WW1? Turned it into 'Not Trench Warfare anymore'. > Or the > Gatlin gun and helecopter to WW2? Meant lots more of these and lots of blown-up helicopters. -- Bruce Johnson University of Arizona College of Pharmacy Information Technology Group Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs From ajackson at iii.com Mon Oct 1 18:17:06 2007 From: ajackson at iii.com (Anthony Jackson) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2007 17:17:06 -0700 Subject: [TML] Molding Ships In-Reply-To: <7EC309F4-D772-4589-9A4C-6D34F7983664@pharmacy.arizona.edu> References: <7EC309F4-D772-4589-9A4C-6D34F7983664@pharmacy.arizona.edu> Message-ID: <47018E02.60100@iii.com> Bruce Johnson wrote: > On Oct 1, 2007, at 2:21 PM, Charles Prevatte wrote: > >> What would air dropped nepalm done to the trench warfare of WW1? > > Turned it into 'Not Trench Warfare anymore'. Well, assuming they also had usable bombsights. Otherwise, not very useful. From david.d.jaques-watson at centrelink.gov.au Mon Oct 1 21:36:36 2007 From: david.d.jaques-watson at centrelink.gov.au (david.d.jaques-watson at centrelink.gov.au) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 13:36:36 +1000 Subject: [TML] Trade Tables [SEC=UNOFFICIAL] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Folks - Leonard replied to Stuart: >>But the best was UFO, of Shadow fame. > >SHADO actually. "10 years...I've given 10 years of sweat and sacrifice to get SHADO running the way I want it. And I won't let some young punk like you mess things up!" - Lt. Col. Straker Cool show! Ahem. And Now For Something Completely Different... This is really just a heads-up to let you know I have finally begin webifying my Trade Tables, something long-threatened but never realised. If you are interested, go to my website, then: ==> Tavonni Repair Bays ==> House Rules ==> Trade Tables Make sure you read the "Acknowledgements and Copyright" first, tho', before you critique the work. :-) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson ..at.. Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520) http://www.pcug.org.au/~davidjw davidjw ..at.. pcug.org.au "I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity" ------------------------------------------------------------------------ REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ********************************************************************** IMPORTANT: This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege. If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament. If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments. ********************************************************************** From gmgoffin at yahoo.com Mon Oct 1 21:59:58 2007 From: gmgoffin at yahoo.com (Glenn M. Goffin) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 20:59:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [TML] OT: Remastered ST Message-ID: <769427.21850.qm@web34810.mail.mud.yahoo.com> >From: GDWGAMES at aol.com >Is there anyone here who hasn't seen my speech on Star Trek (TOS, of > course) and Traveller? I haven't! --Glenn ____________________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mobileweb/onesearch?refer=1ONXIC From darvedd at gmail.com Mon Oct 1 22:13:45 2007 From: darvedd at gmail.com (Michael Jenkins) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 12:13:45 +0800 Subject: [TML] OT: Remastered ST In-Reply-To: <46FCD289.17454.5488FCC6@shadow.shadowgard.com> References: <092720071728.24477.46FBE82B000CDFD400005F9D21603831160B9D0E99D20AD2979D9D0E09@att.net> <46FC6296.11718.52D1F8C5@shadow.shadowgard.com> <1832b5750709280828x466cd5f3i55e318fc26434041@mail.gmail.com> <46FCD289.17454.5488FCC6@shadow.shadowgard.com> Message-ID: <1832b5750710012113p71cec5afv9e1b4252b1a7a1d6@mail.gmail.com> On 29/09/2007, shadow at shadowgard.com wrote: > On 28 Sep 2007 at 23:28, Michael Jenkins wrote: > > > On 28/09/2007, shadow at shadowgard.com wrote: > > > > Want some fun? Find the episodes of Sapphire & Steel and watch them. > > > Then figure a way to work them into an adventure. Your players will > > > *not* be amused. > > > > > > And if one of them recognizes the pair, expect much gibbering and > > > screaming. > > > > Oh geez, thanks for that ... I *am* one of those players! > > Well, look on the "bright" side. Just think how much worse things > would be in Sapphire and Steel *weren't* there "helping". > > > I'm going to have to check it out now ... forewarned is forearmed! > > Oh, you *don't* know about Sapphire and Steel? > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sapphire_&_Steel > > Let me put it this way. They'd likely not think Ditzie was all that > strange. Yeah, good article, I'd already googled and read it. Funny thing was, our last little adventure under Antony Farrell's auspices bore a suspicious resemblance to a plot I imagine could have *been* a Sapphire and Steel plot - even though he'd never heard of them. Much gibbering and screaming. Time travel gives me the heeby jeebies. Like I said ... Tony doesn't need *any* assistance whatsoever in that regard. We ended up jumping forward and then back in time (unwillingly), damaging the timeline in the process - possibly preventing the original colonisation of the world we'd departed from. The big difference between our adventure and a Sapphire and Steel plot was that we had to repair the damage to the timeline *ourselves*. An excellent adventure achieved with much player to player humour as usual. "OK, genius, you got us into this mess, now get us out!" -- Regards, Michael Jenkins -- No person should call themselves free, While they are enslaved by fear, or greed, or hate. -- From GDWGAMES at aol.com Mon Oct 1 22:17:27 2007 From: GDWGAMES at aol.com (GDWGAMES at aol.com) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 00:17:27 EDT Subject: [TML] OT: Remastered ST Message-ID: >< Is there anyone here who hasn't seen my speech on Star Trek and >Traveller?> > LKW > >Hate to admit it, but I haven't:.( > >Alan Hume I'll make it short. I wrote the original for a presentation to George Takei at a Gen-Con in the early 1990s (post TNE). We had done up a character sheet for Sulu as Captain and printed it out on parchment, got everyone at GDW to autograph the book, etc. I had a summer cold when the time rolled around, so Dave Nilsen ended up actually giving the speech. Basically, Star Trek and Traveller are similar in one rather important way. Star Trek was not the first SF TV series, but it became the standard against which all others were judged. Traveller was not the first SF RPG, but it likewise became the standard against which others were compared. When TSR's Star Frontiers appeared, the review in Dragon mentioned Traveller . . . several times (we at GDW considered this a great compliment). Many games still compare themselves to Traveller, and GDW and others (including Steve Jackson) still refer to it as "the premiere SF RPG" rather than the first or the original SF RPG. It went on for about five minutes and had more to say about Star Trek's contributions to Traveller, but I lost the actual text in a hard drive crash about 1995. One of these days, I'll try to reconstruct it as best I can and post it on www.lorenwiseman.com BTW, when I say "Star Trek" I refer to ST-The Original Series. I almst never add TOS to it. Likewise, Star Wars without further adornment refers to "Episode IV: A New Hope. To me, movies 4-6 are Star Wars, The Empire Strikes Back, and Revenge of the Jedi. LKW ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com From GDWGAMES at aol.com Mon Oct 1 22:56:57 2007 From: GDWGAMES at aol.com (GDWGAMES at aol.com) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 00:56:57 EDT Subject: [TML] Molding Ships Message-ID: >> Actually, printed circuit boards could have been made well before > >then. The modern "photo resist" tricks aren't necessary. > > > >I did my first board by using a brush to paint on the resist where I > >wanted it. For mass production, a stencil and roller will work just > >fine. You'll get more bad boards, but not that many. And most of > >those can be eliminated by hand inspecting the boards before they go > >into the etching solution. Any that look "iffy" go back and get the > >resist (paint!) stripped and sent back thru. What about some form of offset lithography? LKW ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com From GDWGAMES at aol.com Mon Oct 1 23:01:18 2007 From: GDWGAMES at aol.com (GDWGAMES at aol.com) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 01:01:18 EDT Subject: [TML] an interesting story somewhat related to this thing we do Message-ID: >Your post piqued my interest, and I spent quite a bit of Google time myself. > >It looks like the phrase was originally used by highwaymen, and is >documented in 18th century writings. > >More recently (all references I saw were 20th century), it has come to a >much different meaning. There are several military references where it >is used to mean standing up against enemy fire and firing back, which is >the meaning you remember. In the lyrics of a civil rights song , it is >standing up against racism. All I was able to determine is that the phrase is totally unrelated to the phrase "Stand in the liver" . . . LKW ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com From shadow at shadowgard.com Tue Oct 2 02:53:01 2007 From: shadow at shadowgard.com (shadow at shadowgard.com) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2007 01:53:01 -0700 Subject: [TML] UFO ( was Re: Trade Tables [SEC=UNOFFICIAL]) In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <4701A47D.25776.AB966A1@shadow.shadowgard.com> On 2 Oct 2007 at 13:36, david.d.jaques-watson at centrel wrote: > Dear Folks - > > Leonard replied to Stuart: > >>But the best was UFO, of Shadow fame. > > > >SHADO actually. > > "10 years...I've given 10 years of sweat and sacrifice to get SHADO > running the way I want it. And I won't let some young punk like you mess > things up!" > - Lt. Col. Straker > > Cool show! Occurs to me that UFO could be reworked into an "interesting" Traveller adventure. Instead of Earth, have a world outside the Imperial borders. They haven't been contacted by anybody but the organlegger "pirates" that have been raiding them for years (a higher TL world nearby). The players misjump into the system and have to deal with SHADO.... -- Leonard Erickson (aka shadow) shadow at shadowgard dot com From garry.e.ward at worldnet.att.net Tue Oct 2 04:19:34 2007 From: garry.e.ward at worldnet.att.net (Garry Ward) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 06:19:34 -0400 Subject: [TML] UFO ( was Re: Trade Tables [SEC=UNOFFICIAL]) References: , <4701A47D.25776.AB966A1@shadow.shadowgard.com> Message-ID: <000f01c804dd$be266550$ea2d4b0c@YOURFEDDA97C02> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "The Traveller Mailing List" Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 4:53 AM Subject: [TML] UFO ( was Re: Trade Tables [SEC=UNOFFICIAL]) > On 2 Oct 2007 at 13:36, david.d.jaques-watson at centrel wrote: > >> Dear Folks - >> >> Leonard replied to Stuart: >> >>But the best was UFO, of Shadow fame. >> > >> >SHADO actually. >> >> "10 years...I've given 10 years of sweat and sacrifice to get SHADO >> running the way I want it. And I won't let some young punk like you mess >> things up!" >> - Lt. Col. Straker >> >> Cool show! > > Occurs to me that UFO could be reworked into an "interesting" > Traveller adventure. > > Instead of Earth, have a world outside the Imperial borders. They > haven't been contacted by anybody but the organlegger "pirates" that > have been raiding them for years (a higher TL world nearby). > Why not Earth? If I recall correctly, there is some mystery as to why the first extra solar trip via Jump drive went to Barnard's star instead of Alpha Centuri. One theory was that there were those in the government that knew about the aliens. My own sketchy notes on a Traveller: UFO game involved some clandestine raiding by Vilani seeking exotic ... entertainers .... for the wealthy and powerful. It involved a game starting out as a Twilight:2000 based Merc adventure (PCs would be police, FBI or DEA) that lead the PCs to finding out that fly saucers were real and putting them in the position of Colonel Straker. Garry > The players misjump into the system and have to deal with SHADO.... > > -- > Leonard Erickson (aka shadow) > shadow at shadowgard dot com > > > _______________________________________________ > TML mailing list > TML at travellercentral.com > http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml > From lesbates_traveller at yahoo.com Tue Oct 2 04:25:47 2007 From: lesbates_traveller at yahoo.com (Leslie Bates) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 03:25:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [TML] UFO ( was Re: Trade Tables [SEC=UNOFFICIAL]) In-Reply-To: <4701A47D.25776.AB966A1@shadow.shadowgard.com> Message-ID: <53900.10310.qm@web33512.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- shadow at shadowgard.com wrote: > On 2 Oct 2007 at 13:36, > david.d.jaques-watson at centrel wrote: > > > Dear Folks - > > > > Leonard replied to Stuart: > > >>But the best was UFO, of Shadow fame. > > > > > >SHADO actually. > > > > "10 years...I've given 10 years of sweat and > sacrifice to get SHADO > > running the way I want it. And I won't let some > young punk like you mess > > things up!" > > - Lt. Col. Straker > > > > Cool show! > > Occurs to me that UFO could be reworked into an > "interesting" > Traveller adventure. > > Instead of Earth, have a world outside the Imperial > borders. They > haven't been contacted by anybody but the > organlegger "pirates" that > have been raiding them for years (a higher TL world > nearby). > > The players misjump into the system and have to deal > with SHADO.... > > -- > Leonard Erickson (aka shadow) > shadow at shadowgard dot com Gee... I kinda played around with a semi-temporal misjump scenario, myself. Jump into the past of a non-Imperial timeline... From The Machine By Leslie Bates Prologue September 15, 1985 Somewhere in the United Kingdom It was a rare sunny day in Southern England when Allen Keller, a former First Lieutenant of the United States Army, stepped out of the taxi cab at the front gate of the Harlington-Straker Studios. He gave the taxi driver a one-hundred pound note and told him to keep the change. As far as the rest of the world was concerned this would be the first day of new career as a screenwriter. Of course if the rest of the world really knew what he was really doing here they would, in theory anyway, go into total a panic or freak-out mode. At least that was Mister Freeman, the Australian gentleman who "hired" Keller to "work" at H-S Studios told him. Keller could just imagine what the peace-activist trash who parked themselves in front of the main gate at Fort Benning would say: __How dare the selfish fascist pigs shoot at and oppress those poor desperate aliens!__ __Maybe if we hand the peace-activists over to the aliens for spare parts they'll leave the rest of us alone. __ Keller thought for a moment. It wasn't any sillier than any other peace-freak thought. __ And quite frankly__, Keller thought, __they deserve it.__ Keller walked up to guard shack at the front gate and presented his newly issued U.S. Passport to the uniformed studio security officer. "Thank you, sir." the security officer said. "This is for you, sir." The security officer handed Keller a temporary visitor badge. "They'll issue you a proper photo I.D. when you get inside, sir." "Thank you." Keller said. "Which way is the main office?" For a moment he wondered if the security officer at the gate was in on the big secret. "Someone is already on their way to give you a lift, sir." Keller thanked the security officer again and stood waiting for his ride. It was a very short wait. A small vehicle came out to the main gate from the cluster of buildings that formed the main part of the studio. To Keller the vehicle looked like a golf cart designed by someone whose previous job was building Chieftain Main Battle Tanks. At the wheel was a brown-haired lady that Keller would politely describe as being very well constructed. She stepped out of the vehicle and spoke to Keller. "Mister Keller?" "Yes." He nodded to her. "I'm Miss Ellis." She said. Would you come with me please?" __Of course I would__. Keller thought. __But let's work on that later.__ "Yes." Keller said. "Of course." Miss Ellis drove the cart to the studio headquarters tower and parked the cart in a clearly marked parking spot. Ellis and Keller both showed their badges to the security officer at the building entrance. Keller followed Miss Ellis into an elevator. She inserted her badge into a slot under the control panel with the magstripe facing down. "You need to insert yours as well." She said. Keller inserted his visitor badge into the slot. Miss Ellis then the floor button for the basement and held it down. She then let it up and gave the button two more short taps. "That's the code for this month," said Miss Ellis, "one long tap and two short ones." Keller nodded. He felt the elevator descend to the secret lower level. The elevator car stopped and the doors opened. Keller followed Miss Ellis out of the lift. In front of the bank of elevators on the secret level was another security station. This one was manned by three veteran soldiers in SAS-type body armor and armed with Heckler and Koch MP5 submachine guns. Emblazoned on the wall in big bureaucratic letters was the true name of Allen Keller's new employer. SUPREME HEADQUARTERS ALIEN DEFENCE ORGANISATION "Leftenant Keller," said Miss Ellis with the proper British pronunciation, "welcome to SHADO." ... Somewhere above the Ecliptic Plane. Ditzie Spofulam sat very quietly in the navigator's seat on the bridge of the Imperial Mercenary Ship CHAUCHAT. To all appearances she was an eight-year old girl with dark brown hair and a taste for odd slogans on her tee-shirts. In actuality Ditzie was a genetically engineered hyper-genius who aged very, very slowly. And if she had not decided to attempt to tweak the ship's jump drive so it burn it's fuel more efficiently they certainly would not be in their present situation. Her Uncle Dennis was already upset about the misjump that CHAUCHAT had only just emerged from. But there was now a further complication to an already bad situation. He was once again crunching some numbers on the ship's main computer. Ditzie decided to say something. "We _are_ in the Solar System." Dennis suppressed the urge to snap at her. "The problem is not where we are," he said with a level voice, "the problem is when." "When?" Ditzie asked in reply. Dennis Aella Sterling, retired naval officer, and until a week ago in subjective time, a Lord of the Third Imperium, sat back in the pilots seat of the CHAUCHAT and sighed. He waited for the better part of a minute to calm down before answering Ditzie. "As close as I can figure," he said, "we are in the middle of the month of September of the year nineteen-hundred and eighty-five... _Anno Domini_." Ditzie was stunned to hear that. A week ago for her in subjective time it had been the Imperial Year 1104. "I think," said Dennis, "I may have an ancestor who's leaving the United States Army at about this time." This of course assumed that Dennis was in fact a descendant, via a mistress, of the emperor known as Cleon the Mad. But that was not a subject that Uncle Dennis usually spoke of. Dennis sat back and closed his eyes as if he were meditating. He remained in that state for about five minutes before he moved again. He looked at the sensor readouts and then hit several switches on the control panels. He then picked up a microphone. "All hands," said Dennis, "This is the Captain, we are going to do a frontier refueling at Jupiter before we attempt to approach Terra. That is all for now." Dennis turned to Ditzie. "Now," he said, "we get to see if you could really build a fusion reactor with a tin can and some old telephone parts." "Sure." Ditzie said. "No sweat." ... Somewhere in the Kuiper Belt. On a frozen dwarf planet, which the system charts of the Third Imperium would someday call 136199 Eris, the eyes of the people who now called themselves the Highfolk watched as one of their worst nightmares became real. A small ship, using the faster-than-light drive of their Ancient Enemy, appeared in the system. The sensors watched as the ship accelerated on a vector toward the gas giant planet the Highfolk called Red-Eye. The leader of the Highfolk then issued a command. "Send four landing craft. Kill it." [End of Prologue] [I originally wrote the following as part of the Prologue but decided to use it later in the narrative.] On their homeworld, long lost in the distance of time and space, the ancestors of the Highfolk had built for themselves a high technology civilization. They had mastered the techniques of fusion power and gravitics and were about to take their first leap across interstellar space when the Enemy came. A vast fleet of faster-than-light warships appeared literally from nowhere above the homeworld and showered the cities of their race with nuclear bombs until the survivors on the surface surrendered. But out near a gas giant planet of the home system some of their race were in the process of building a slower-than-light starship. The construction crews and the ship's officers who were supervising the construction watched from a distance as the Enemy subjugated their homeworld. They roughly finished what they needed to finish on the ship, loaded themselves, their families, and any parts of the construction habitat that weren't welded down aboard the starship, and departed the system. Never to look back. Generation upon generation of the people who would become the Highfolk would be born, live full lives, and die, before the ship's telescopes would sight a suitable world for settlement. The third planet of a yellow star. But as their great generation ship entered their new home system the sensors detected the electromagnetic pulse of the detonation of a nuclear bomb on the third planet. As landing craft were sent ahead to investigate two more nuclear bombs were detonated. To their horror they found that the third planet was inhabited by numerous primitive nations. What was more shocking was that race that made up these nations was human like themselves. Fully biologically human. At that time the people, who would henceforth call themselves the Highfolk, were virtually unarmed. They were afraid that if they had attempted to settle on the third planet they would have been overwhelmed by sheer force of numbers. Instead they came up with a new plan. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting From hemdian at trisen.com Tue Oct 2 05:11:47 2007 From: hemdian at trisen.com (Peter L.S. Trevor) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 12:11:47 +0100 Subject: [TML] UFO ( was Re: Trade Tables [SEC=UNOFFICIAL]) Message-ID: <200710021111.l92BBlx7014903@omr10.networksolutionsemail.com> Shadow wrote: > Occurs to me that UFO could be > reworked into an "interesting" > Traveller adventure. > > Instead of Earth, have a world outside > the Imperial borders. They haven't been > contacted by anybody but the > organlegger "pirates" that have been > raiding them for years (a higher TL > world nearby). > > The players misjump into the system > and have to deal with SHADO.... For twisted First Contact scenarios that could be run in Traveller check out Crusade episode 12 ("Visitors From Down The Street") ... which was actually pretty good ... The players encounter a lifeboat with a pair of aliens onboard. The aliens are convinced the players are involved with their government in a conspiracy to supress the truth about other worlds. Regards PLST From darvedd at gmail.com Tue Oct 2 06:11:23 2007 From: darvedd at gmail.com (Michael Jenkins) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 20:11:23 +0800 Subject: [TML] UFO ( was Re: Trade Tables [SEC=UNOFFICIAL]) In-Reply-To: <200710021111.l92BBlx7014903@omr10.networksolutionsemail.com> References: <200710021111.l92BBlx7014903@omr10.networksolutionsemail.com> Message-ID: <1832b5750710020511vc825da4x6732826b4c18a26e@mail.gmail.com> On 02/10/2007, Peter L.S. Trevor wrote: > > Shadow wrote: > > Occurs to me that UFO could be > > reworked into an "interesting" > > Traveller adventure. > > > > Instead of Earth, have a world outside > > the Imperial borders. They haven't been > > contacted by anybody but the > > organlegger "pirates" that have been > > raiding them for years (a higher TL > > world nearby). > > > > The players misjump into the system > > and have to deal with SHADO.... > > For twisted First Contact scenarios that could be run in Traveller check out Crusade episode 12 ("Visitors From Down The Street") ... which was actually pretty good ... The players encounter a lifeboat with a pair of aliens onboard. The aliens are convinced the players are involved with their government in a conspiracy to supress the truth about other worlds. > [shudder] ... Urgh.gh.gh.gh.gh ... [shudder] ... Crusade ... [shudder] *Loved* Babylon 5, but definitely *not* Crusade. Something about the Technomage character I personally found extremely annoying ... the supercilious pontificating git! ;-) I'm not entirely sure what it was about him that annoyed me and why, but am I alone in this? Other than that, it would have been alright! :) -- Regards, Michael Jenkins -- No person should call themselves free, While they are enslaved by fear, or greed, or hate. -- From prevattec at bellsouth.net Tue Oct 2 06:59:10 2007 From: prevattec at bellsouth.net (Charles Prevatte) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 08:59:10 -0400 Subject: [TML] Molding Ships In-Reply-To: <7EC309F4-D772-4589-9A4C-6D34F7983664@pharmacy.arizona.edu> Message-ID: Doubtfull. I was assuming a helecopter closer to the Vetnam era Huey's armed with gatlin guns on the skid and in the doors. The tracking speed of a flank panzer was not all that great even for it's time and against pop up attacks with 6000 RPM cyclic rate 7.62 MM rounds that open turret would quickly become a coffin. The Flack panzer was not very effective even against contemporary aircraft and tactic. Also, such a helecopter could carry combat teams with snipers, bazzookas, and demolition teams to ruin an enemies day from behind the lines. Helecopters unlike WW2 gliders and paratroopers can move after they land, and provide their troops a lot of close support firepower even inside towns. It would also not have taken much to adapt the recoilless rifles of that day for use on these Helecopters for anti tank work. As for the nepalm idea, bomb sites would not have been all that necessary in WW1. A low pass with a single large bomb, that spread on impact like modern naplam dropped weapons would open a large whole in the lines. You would only need a few such surprises to gain a tactical advantage that you could turn into a strategic victory. And remember that the "space men" would have all of history including what we would consider the furture to use for reference. Think about operation Market Garden. What would a dozen Huey's gunships with gatlin guns have done to hold the "bridge to far"? Each helecopter could have brought in 12 new soilders and equipment per trip and provided close air support on the way out. Add to this that they could have deployed combat engineers behind the enemy to take out bridges that allowed reinforcement to reach the bridge and overwhelm the partroopers trying to hold it. To tell the truth Market Garden could have used a good deal more air support, even for it's time and with what they had. If the allies could had put enough fire power on the east side of that bridge the paratroopers would have had a lot easier time of it. Or if their had been a second wave of paratroopers in reserve to support the first, or if the relief force had been able to move a little faster (fat chance on that road), things might have been different. Like the general said at the time, they went a bridge to far. They just did not have enough, to hold that bridge. Charles L. > -----Original Message----- > From: tml-bounces at travellercentral.com > [mailto:tml-bounces at travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Bruce Johnson > Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 7:25 PM > To: The Traveller Mailing List > Subject: Re: [TML] Molding Ships > > > > On Oct 1, 2007, at 2:21 PM, Charles Prevatte wrote: > > > What would air dropped nepalm done to the trench warfare of WW1? > > Turned it into 'Not Trench Warfare anymore'. > > > Or the > > Gatlin gun and helecopter to WW2? > > Meant lots more of these > and lots of blown-up helicopters. > > -- > Bruce Johnson > University of Arizona > College of Pharmacy > Information Technology Group > > Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs > > > _______________________________________________ > TML mailing list > TML at travellercentral.com > http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.36/1041 - Release Date: > 10/1/2007 10:20 AM > No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.36/1041 - Release Date: 10/1/2007 10:20 AM From tom.cusworth at googlemail.com Tue Oct 2 09:33:45 2007 From: tom.cusworth at googlemail.com (Tom Cusworth) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 16:33:45 +0100 Subject: [TML] UFO ( was Re: Trade Tables [SEC=UNOFFICIAL]) In-Reply-To: <1832b5750710020511vc825da4x6732826b4c18a26e@mail.gmail.com> References: <200710021111.l92BBlx7014903@omr10.networksolutionsemail.com> <1832b5750710020511vc825da4x6732826b4c18a26e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4b5cc71a0710020833h5a7d659cg93de23b6433e2435@mail.gmail.com> No, you weren't alone in that. He was a D**khead. I need say no more. -Tom On 02/10/2007, Michael Jenkins wrote: > > On 02/10/2007, Peter L.S. Trevor wrote: > > > > Shadow wrote: > > > Occurs to me that UFO could be > > > reworked into an "interesting" > > > Traveller adventure. > > > > > > Instead of Earth, have a world outside > > > the Imperial borders. They haven't been > > > contacted by anybody but the > > > organlegger "pirates" that have been > > > raiding them for years (a higher TL > > > world nearby). > > > > > > The players misjump into the system > > > and have to deal with SHADO.... > > > > For twisted First Contact scenarios that could be run in Traveller check > out Crusade episode 12 ("Visitors From Down The Street") ... which was > actually pretty good ... The players encounter a lifeboat with a pair of > aliens onboard. The aliens are convinced the players are involved with > their government in a conspiracy to supress the truth about other worlds. > > > > [shudder] ... Urgh.gh.gh.gh.gh ... [shudder] ... Crusade ... [shudder] > > *Loved* Babylon 5, but definitely *not* Crusade. Something about the > Technomage character I personally found extremely annoying ... the > supercilious pontificating git! ;-) > > I'm not entirely sure what it was about him that annoyed me and why, > but am I alone in this? > > Other than that, it would have been alright! :) > > -- > Regards, > Michael Jenkins > -- > No person should call themselves free, > While they are enslaved by fear, or greed, or hate. > -- > _______________________________________________ > TML mailing list > TML at travellercentral.com > http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml > -- Blessed are the cheapskates, for they shall see god and still have change of a fiver - Tom Holt, Valhalla. Want Googlemail? Ask me & I'll invite you! From quakers_united at yahoo.com.au Tue Oct 2 09:39:58 2007 From: quakers_united at yahoo.com.au (James Ramsay) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2007 01:39:58 +1000 Subject: [TML] Molding Ships In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4702664E.3090800@yahoo.com.au> Charles Prevatte wrote: > Think about operation Market Garden. What would a dozen Huey's gunships > with gatlin guns have done to hold the "bridge to far"? Each helecopter > could have brought in 12 new soilders and equipment per trip and provided > close air support on the way out. Add to this that they could have deployed > combat engineers behind the enemy to take out bridges that allowed > reinforcement to reach the bridge and overwhelm the partroopers trying to > hold it. If they had enough transport aircraft Market Garden would have been a lot closer to success. The main issue was lack of momentum early in the battle due to low numbers of troops (of course if the game _Close Combat: A bridge to far_ is to be believed, I can hold off whole companies with two MG-42's). But I don't think a dozen helo's would cut it. In a situation like WWII when you generally need things *now*, would it be worthwhile to make high tech boondoggles, or increase the manufacture of already proven (though sub-par) equipment? Especially when plain bad luck (rifle fire, engine failure etc) could take out a rare high tech toy. The Soviets won WWII with masses of cheap weapons and simplistic tactics. Making the T-34/85 a few years earlier would achieve more then a few super tanks. The best use of high tech to improve WWII would be satellites (or high orbit UAV's) and networked logistics. Market Garden failure was down to poor logistics. -- the_raptor "As for sniping... Dude, I was a freaking sniper! It's what I do!" - Doug Berry From hemdian at trisen.com Tue Oct 2 09:47:33 2007 From: hemdian at trisen.com (Peter L.S. Trevor) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 16:47:33 +0100 Subject: [TML] UFO ( was Re: Trade Tables [SEC=UNOFFICIAL]) Message-ID: <200710021547.l92FlaAo006649@omr2.networksolutionsemail.com> Michael Jenkins wrote: > [shudder] ... Urgh.gh.gh.gh.gh ... > [shudder] ... Crusade ... [shudder] In general I agree, but the last 2 episodes (#12 and #13) were quite reasonable. Regards PLST From garry.e.ward at worldnet.att.net Tue Oct 2 09:53:52 2007 From: garry.e.ward at worldnet.att.net (Garry Ward) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 11:53:52 -0400 Subject: [TML] Molding Ships References: <4702664E.3090800@yahoo.com.au> Message-ID: <001501c8050c$70f37910$d62b4b0c@YOURFEDDA97C02> ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Ramsay" To: "The Traveller Mailing List" Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 11:39 AM Subject: Re: [TML] Molding Ships > Charles Prevatte wrote: >> Think about operation Market Garden. What would a dozen Huey's gunships >> with gatlin guns have done to hold the "bridge to far"? Each helecopter >> could have brought in 12 new soilders and equipment per trip and provided >> close air support on the way out. Add to this that they could have >> deployed >> combat engineers behind the enemy to take out bridges that allowed >> reinforcement to reach the bridge and overwhelm the partroopers trying to >> hold it. > > If they had enough transport aircraft Market Garden would have been a > lot closer to success. The main issue was lack of momentum early in the > battle due to low numbers of troops (of course if the game _Close > Combat: A bridge to far_ is to be believed, I can hold off whole > companies with two MG-42's). But I don't think a dozen helo's would cut > it. > > In a situation like WWII when you generally need things *now*, would it > be worthwhile to make high tech boondoggles, or increase the manufacture > of already proven (though sub-par) equipment? Especially when plain bad > luck (rifle fire, engine failure etc) could take out a rare high tech > toy. The Soviets won WWII with masses of cheap weapons and simplistic > tactics. Making the T-34/85 a few years earlier would achieve more then > a few super tanks. > > The best use of high tech to improve WWII would be satellites (or high > orbit UAV's) and networked logistics. Market Garden failure was down to > poor logistics. > Poor logistics tends to be one of the key elements in failure of any military operation. As critical as the actual combat troops are to success, the inability to a) get them to where they need to be b) with enough supplies and ammo c) the continued ability to repeat a & b tend to make for failures. The early successes in WWII were due in a large part to the logistics advantage of the new mechanized warfare over the previous horse/wagon/foot methods. That advantage was lost once the Allies began to use the same techniques and developed the ability to perform those logistical tasks in larger quantity and over a wider area. Garry > -- > the_raptor > "As for sniping... Dude, I was a freaking sniper! > It's what I do!" - Doug Berry > > _______________________________________________ > TML mailing list > TML at travellercentral.com > http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml > From Leon.Wu at newswire.ca Tue Oct 2 10:04:22 2007 From: Leon.Wu at newswire.ca (Leon Wu) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 12:04:22 -0400 Subject: [TML] UFO ( was Re: Trade Tables [SEC=UNOFFICIAL]) In-Reply-To: <1832b5750710020511vc825da4x6732826b4c18a26e@mail.gmail.com> References: <200710021111.l92BBlx7014903@omr10.networksolutionsemail.com> <1832b5750710020511vc825da4x6732826b4c18a26e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <270030C754582B458D8E7BF9EBDE7A4F039BBC12@YTO1VEXC001.ibmcahostedmail.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: tml-bounces at travellercentral.com [mailto:tml- > bounces at travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Michael Jenkins > Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 8:11 AM > To: The Traveller Mailing List > Subject: Re: [TML] UFO ( was Re: Trade Tables [SEC=UNOFFICIAL]) > > [shudder] ... Urgh.gh.gh.gh.gh ... [shudder] ... Crusade ... [shudder] > > *Loved* Babylon 5, but definitely *not* Crusade. Something about the > Technomage character I personally found extremely annoying ... the > supercilious pontificating git! ;-) > > I'm not entirely sure what it was about him that annoyed me and why, > but am I alone in this? > > Other than that, it would have been alright! :) I was a huge B5 fans (well, season 1-4) but only watched a snippet of Crusade. Giant space battleship with big monster cannon trying to save earth... Where have I seen that before? "We're off to outer space, defending mother earth..." From threeeyesmcgurk at hotmail.com Tue Oct 2 10:17:02 2007 From: threeeyesmcgurk at hotmail.com (alan hume) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 16:17:02 +0000 Subject: [TML] an interesting story somewhat related to this thing we do In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >There are several military references where it>>is used to>mean standing up against enemy fire and firing back, which is>>the meaning you remember. I never knew that at all, I thought that you meant something like the 18th or 19th century at first when you said that, standing up in the face of enemy fire to deliver a volley seems really, really dangerous in terms of twentieth century warfare (on which I am not qualified to speak) thus I thought it was something from the Napoleonic or Horse and Musket era. Was this a term from WW2? Alan Hume _________________________________________________________________ Get free emoticon packs and customisation from Windows Live. http://www.pimpmylive.co.uk From daveshayne at sbcglobal.net Tue Oct 2 10:20:42 2007 From: daveshayne at sbcglobal.net (David Shayne) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 09:20:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [TML] lifeboats Message-ID: <471729.94593.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 04:49:26 -0400 From: Jerry W Barrington > Any routine use of the lifeboats would be absurd. Not considering lifeboats as they are described in the rules. > The lifeboat designs we're seeing here are cramped, meant for emergency > use, and that is appropriate. That design is horrible for ferrying passengers > around. Emergency low berths are explicitly stated to be capable of carrying 1 conscious passenger each (Supplement 7 page 39) for those circumstances. Ideal for a starport shuttle? No, but a good compromise for a ship desiring both routine passenger transport and on board emergency evacuation capability. > And to be useful to move any small cargo, you'd have to strip out the > emergency supplies, etc, and then put them back when done > *every single time you use it*. No just remove the emergency supplies when you arrive at your destination and then replace them before you leave for your next. Or leave out a couple ELBs when buying your lifeboat to accomodate dedicated cargo space. It's not like emergency supplies take up a lot of space when the vast majority of your passengers are in cold sleep anyway. David Shayne From threeeyesmcgurk at hotmail.com Tue Oct 2 10:33:43 2007 From: threeeyesmcgurk at hotmail.com (alan hume) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 16:33:43 +0000 Subject: [TML] OT: Remastered ST In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >I wrote the original for a presentation to George Takei> at>a Gen-Con in the early 1990s (post TNE). We had done up a>character sheet> for Sulu as Captain and printed it out on>parchment, got everyone at GDW to> autograph the book,>etc. Thanks very much for taking the time to reply on my behalf Loren, much appreciated. That is just toooooo cool, awesome, really great, I bet he had some pretty cool stats:.) A really nice thing to do I agree with your comparisons between Star trek and Traveller, totally I can still remember everytime an SF RPG was reviewed in White Dwarf (back in it's glory days before it became a house organ) it was compared with Traveller, the game is indeed the one against which all others are judged I just bought a complete set of all the original star trek series on DVD, to me they are very much a nostalgic treasure, I remember Star Trek always being there (while I was growing up) and it is just such a great series, really, really monumental, I must admit that at the moment, the original trek is seriously becoming my favourite show out of all the incarnations of Trek (I just saw Babylon 5 too, missed it first time out and it was stunning) Have to agree wholeheartedly (again, for nostalgia as much for anyghing else) the first 3 Star Wars movies ARE star wars to me (Was the Scout courier hull based on an Imperial Star Destroyer by the way or was it taken from "Dark Star" or was it an original, it is a definite icon those days:.) It would be nice to hear your speech some day but please dont go to any effort to try and rework it on my behalf (I can still remmeber the nightmare I had a couple of years ago when I, finally, went to the Open University to get a degree and my computer swallowed at least 2 essays, they never were half as good once I had redone them from memopry an dthe work involved was way too much) Anyhow, looking forward to seeing the books Ad Astra tells me you ar egoing to be writing for them, awesome, I took the liberty of asking them if it would be possible to buy a signed copy:.) What with Traveller 5 and Mongoose Traveller on the horizon things have never looked better in the Traveller camp I reckon, I think these are exciting times for us all ----------------------------------------> From: GDWGAMES at aol.com> Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 00:17:27 -0400> To: tml at travellercentral.com> Subject: Re: [TML] OT: Remastered ST>>>< Is there anyone here who hasn't seen my speech on Star Trek and>>Traveller?>>> LKW>>>>Hate to admit it, but I haven't:.(>>>>Alan Hume>> I'll make it short. I wrote the original for a presentation to George Takei> at a Gen-Con in the early 1990s (post TNE). We had done up a character sheet> for Sulu as Captain and printed it out on parchment, got everyone at GDW to> autograph the book, etc. I had a summer cold when the time rolled around, so Dave> Nilsen ended up actually giving the speech.>> Basically, Star Trek and Traveller are similar in one rather important way.> Star Trek was not the first SF TV series, but it became the standard against> which all others were judged. Traveller was not the first SF RPG, but it> likewise became the standard against which others were compared. When TSR's Star> Frontiers appeared, the review in Dragon mentioned Traveller . . . several times> (we at GDW considered this a great compliment). Many games still compare> themselves to Traveller, and GDW and others (including Steve Jackson) still refer to> it as "the premiere SF RPG" rather than the first or the original SF RPG.>> It went on for about five minutes and had more to say about Star Trek's> contributions to Traveller, but I lost the actual text in a hard drive crash about> 1995. One of these days, I'll try to reconstruct it as best I can and post it> on www.lorenwiseman.com>>> BTW, when I say "Star Trek" I refer to ST-The Original Series. I almst never> add TOS to it. Likewise, Star Wars without further adornment refers to> "Episode IV: A New Hope. To me, movies 4-6 are Star Wars, The Empire Strikes Back,> and Revenge of the Jedi.>> LKW>>> **************************************> See what's new at http://www.aol.com>> _______________________________________________> TML mailing list> TML at travellercentral.com> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml _________________________________________________________________ Celeb spotting ? Play CelebMashup and win cool prizes https://www.celebmashup.com From tom.cusworth at googlemail.com Tue Oct 2 11:43:35 2007 From: tom.cusworth at googlemail.com (Tom Cusworth) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 18:43:35 +0100 Subject: [TML] OT: Query regarding UK PBM game from the '80's Message-ID: <4b5cc71a0710021043n6e8c58c7jf8ad580f2600257d@mail.gmail.com> Hello, Please forgive the OT question, but I think that if there's anywhere that can answer this question, then the TML might be the place... In the mid-'80's (around 1985 or so) one of my secondary school teachers played a Play-by-mail game. I'd like to run a version of it for a group of friends via email. There's two problems I have, though... I can't remember the name and do not have a copy of the rules... So, if I describe the premise, then perhaps the collected wisdom of the TML may be able to furnish me with the details I need. Without further ado: It was set in Britain after an apocalyptic event (not sure if this was post-nuke or not). Civilisation has collapsed and infrastructure is non-existent. Each player is in control of a group of survivors, who each have a number of skill sets (an engineer, a doctor, a chemist as well as a number of "ordinary people"etc) and are in control of an area of the British isles (a couple of square kilometers or so) where they have to build a community, and resist the attempts of the other players to sabotage said efforts by means of raiding, spying and such underhanded deeds. I think each turn was either a week of game time or a month at the outside. I also think the game (since it was PBM only at the time) was only run in the UK. Can anyone help me with either the name of the PBM or a link for the rules? Thank you in advance, -Tom -- Blessed are the cheapskates, for they shall see god and still have change of a fiver - Tom Holt, Valhalla. Want Googlemail? Ask me & I'll invite you! From tom.cusworth at googlemail.com Tue Oct 2 11:56:40 2007 From: tom.cusworth at googlemail.com (Tom Cusworth) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 18:56:40 +0100 Subject: [TML] Molding Ships In-Reply-To: <4702664E.3090800@yahoo.com.au> References: <4702664E.3090800@yahoo.com.au> Message-ID: <4b5cc71a0710021056g3e483789sb503c7553d08dced@mail.gmail.com> On 02/10/2007, James Ramsay wrote: > > > If they had enough transport aircraft Market Garden would have been a > lot closer to success. The main issue was lack of momentum early in the > battle due to low numbers of troops (of course if the game _Close > Combat: A bridge to far_ is to be believed, I can hold off whole > companies with two MG-42's). But I don't think a dozen helo's would cut > it. > > In a situation like WWII when you generally need things *now*, would it > be worthwhile to make high tech boondoggles, or increase the manufacture > of already proven (though sub-par) equipment? Especially when plain bad > luck (rifle fire, engine failure etc) could take out a rare high tech > toy. The Soviets won WWII with masses of cheap weapons and simplistic > tactics. Making the T-34/85 a few years earlier would achieve more then > a few super tanks. > > The best use of high tech to improve WWII would be satellites (or high > orbit UAV's) and networked logistics. Market Garden failure was down to > poor logistics. > > -- > the_raptor > "As for sniping... Dude, I was a freaking sniper! > It's what I do!" - Doug Berry > > _______________________________________________ > TML mailing list > TML at travellercentral.com > http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml > Erm, I thought the failure of Market Garden was due to a number of factors, not least of which was the terrible prevalence of fog in the South of England after the initial drop of the British 1st Airborne. This prevented reinforcement by the Polish until Thursday, September 21st (IIRC). The other main factor in the faiure of the assault was, as correctly pointed out, the inadequacy of the Dutch road system, which prevented XXX Corps moving up to Arnhem swiftly enough to intevene in the battle for the bridge across the Rhine. It's an interesting thought to imagine what difference helicopters would have made, though. What about 60 or 70 ATGMs? Or man-portable integrated radio system, allowing integrated command & control of dispersed units? Or even a NAW capability for aircraft? -Tom -- Blessed are the cheapskates, for they shall see god and still have change of a fiver - Tom Holt, Valhalla. Want Googlemail? Ask me & I'll invite you! From Leon.Wu at newswire.ca Tue Oct 2 12:06:44 2007 From: Leon.Wu at newswire.ca (Leon Wu) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 14:06:44 -0400 Subject: [TML] Molding Ships In-Reply-To: <4b5cc71a0710021056g3e483789sb503c7553d08dced@mail.gmail.com> References: <4702664E.3090800@yahoo.com.au> <4b5cc71a0710021056g3e483789sb503c7553d08dced@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <270030C754582B458D8E7BF9EBDE7A4F03D79F79@YTO1VEXC001.ibmcahostedmail.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: tml-bounces at travellercentral.com [mailto:tml- > bounces at travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Tom Cusworth > Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 1:57 PM > To: The Traveller Mailing List > Subject: Re: [TML] Molding Ships > > Erm, > > I thought the failure of Market Garden was due to a number of factors, not > least of which was the terrible prevalence of fog in the South of England > after the initial drop of the British 1st Airborne. This prevented > reinforcement by the Polish until Thursday, September 21st (IIRC). The > other > main factor in the faiure of the assault was, as correctly pointed out, > the > inadequacy of the Dutch road system, which prevented XXX Corps moving up > to > Arnhem swiftly enough to intevene in the battle for the bridge across the > Rhine. > > It's an interesting thought to imagine what difference helicopters would > have made, though. What about 60 or 70 ATGMs? Or man-portable integrated > radio system, allowing integrated command & control of dispersed units? Or > even a NAW capability for aircraft? > > -Tom Lets not forget the nearby presence of two SS Panzer divisions (understrengt though they may be). Now if we're handing the allies modern attack helicopters, what would happen if the Germans had ATGM's? Forget about XXX Corp then. Or the effect of Manpads to allied airpower? From tml at stempest.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 2 12:16:08 2007 From: tml at stempest.demon.co.uk (Stephen Tempest) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2007 19:16:08 +0100 Subject: [TML] Molding Ships In-Reply-To: References: <7EC309F4-D772-4589-9A4C-6D34F7983664@pharmacy.arizona.edu> Message-ID: "Charles Prevatte" writes: >As for the nepalm idea, bomb sites would not have been all that necessary in >WW1. A low pass with a single large bomb, that spread on impact like modern >naplam dropped weapons would open a large whole in the lines. > >You would only need a few such surprises to gain a tactical advantage that >you could turn into a strategic victory. The same way that the surprise first use of poison gas gave a tactical advantage that was turned into a strategic victory? Or the first use of flamethrowers? Or the first use of tanks? Or the first use of infiltration tactics? I'm not sure that airdropped napalm would be all that effective against men sheltered below ground level in trenches. If the aircraft got a direct hit then you'd kill the men in one particular bay of the trench. No more. In other words, apart from the terror factor, not really any more effective than an artillery bombardment. And even if you blew a huge hole in the trench line, you've still got to feed through men advancing on foot across torn-up muddy ground, when the defender can bring up their own reinforcements by rail and intact roads. A single small-scale technological innovation was not going to affect the course of WW1 that dramatically, in my opinion. Not to mention that I'd not fancy trying to fly a string and canvas WW1 biplane with a huge tank of napalm slung underneath... Stephen From Leon.Wu at newswire.ca Tue Oct 2 12:19:58 2007 From: Leon.Wu at newswire.ca (Leon Wu) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 14:19:58 -0400 Subject: [TML] Molding Ships In-Reply-To: References: <7EC309F4-D772-4589-9A4C-6D34F7983664@pharmacy.arizona.edu> Message-ID: <270030C754582B458D8E7BF9EBDE7A4F03D79FA7@YTO1VEXC001.ibmcahostedmail.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: tml-bounces at travellercentral.com [mailto:tml- > bounces at travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Stephen Tempest > Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 2:16 PM > To: The Traveller Mailing List > Subject: Re: [TML] Molding Ships > > I'm not sure that airdropped napalm would be all that effective > against men sheltered below ground level in trenches. If the aircraft > got a direct hit then you'd kill the men in one particular bay of the > trench. No more. In other words, apart from the terror factor, not > really any more effective than an artillery bombardment. > > And even if you blew a huge hole in the trench line, you've still got > to feed through men advancing on foot across torn-up muddy ground, > when the defender can bring up their own reinforcements by rail and > intact roads. > > A single small-scale technological innovation was not going to affect > the course of WW1 that dramatically, in my opinion. > > Not to mention that I'd not fancy trying to fly a string and canvas > WW1 biplane with a huge tank of napalm slung underneath... > > Stephen Good point. There were many breakthroughs in trench warfare but usually never exploited because the following waves would get bogged down and attrited trying to cross no-man's land. From deliberatus at verizon.net Tue Oct 2 09:35:29 2007 From: deliberatus at verizon.net (Kirk Bailey) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2007 11:35:29 -0400 Subject: [TML] lifeboats In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47026541.9040306@verizon.net> Jerry W Barrington wrote: [snip] > > Only Annual maintenance? Hardly! In order to be "pull a lever -> launch", > that fusion plant must be constantly running. NO, but a small computer and battery bank must be online. MAINS from the ship keep them in a charged state. That will take the same > maintenance as the main plant of the ship, only distributed all over the > ship in every lifeboat. And constant refueling along with the main tanks. > The lifeboat IS one of the reserve tanks. when it leaves, it takes some tankage with it. > And the passengers have to have unsupervised access to these things, in case > no crew is unable to help them. So how are you going to make sure the > passengers' little kids don't activate them? 1. big red switch is 6 foot off the floor. 2. it takes a 40 pound pull to activate. 3. stupid people's unsupervised children DESERVE to die in space. IF you want your genetic material to survive to reproduce, watch over it. -- Salute! -Kirk Bailey Think +-----+ | BOX | +-----+ knihT Fnord. From gmgoffin at yahoo.com Tue Oct 2 14:08:33 2007 From: gmgoffin at yahoo.com (Glenn M. Goffin) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 13:08:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [TML] Roup, Amber, Cause, Query. Message-ID: <812281.55423.qm@web34806.mail.mud.yahoo.com> >royce at efn.org wrote: >> Hi, All, >> I hope I'm not mixing up Roup & Ruie again -- I mean the >> waterworld in Regina subsector. >> My question is, what danger makes Roup an amber zone? In my Traveller universe, there have been a few waves of migration from Roup to Regina, and many Roupians on Regina remit money to their relatives regularly. Several Roupian families (notably the Ciscoviches) run much of Regina's organized crime. --Glenn ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. http://farechase.yahoo.com/ From gmgoffin at yahoo.com Tue Oct 2 14:13:44 2007 From: gmgoffin at yahoo.com (Glenn M. Goffin) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 13:13:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [TML] an interesting story somewhat related to this thing we do Message-ID: <708178.68437.qm@web34804.mail.mud.yahoo.com> >From: "Richard Aiken" >I must admit that my google foo is not great, because I couldn't find >reference to my version of what the phrase means. Lot's of hits on >the Edward James Olmos movie, though. So I'm thinking my definition >if out there somewhere, as I doubt the movie - given it's subject >matter (teaching kids to excel far past anyone's expectations) - >derives from the highwaymans line. The Edward James Olmos movie's version of the meaning of the phrase is, as we say in my profession, just plain wrong. --Glenn ____________________________________________________________________________________ Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. http://sims.yahoo.com/ From prevattec at bellsouth.net Tue Oct 2 14:35:17 2007 From: prevattec at bellsouth.net (Charles Prevatte) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 16:35:17 -0400 Subject: [TML] Molding Ships In-Reply-To: <4b5cc71a0710021056g3e483789sb503c7553d08dced@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: tml-bounces at travellercentral.com > [mailto:tml-bounces at travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Tom Cusworth > Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 1:57 PM > To: The Traveller Mailing List > Subject: Re: [TML] Molding Ships > > > On 02/10/2007, James Ramsay wrote: > > > > > > If they had enough transport aircraft Market Garden would have been a > > lot closer to success. The main issue was lack of momentum early in the > > battle due to low numbers of troops (of course if the game _Close > > Combat: A bridge to far_ is to be believed, I can hold off whole > > companies with two MG-42's). But I don't think a dozen helo's would cut > > it. > > > > In a situation like WWII when you generally need things *now*, would it > > be worthwhile to make high tech boondoggles, or increase the manufacture > > of already proven (though sub-par) equipment? Especially when plain bad > > luck (rifle fire, engine failure etc) could take out a rare high tech > > toy. The Soviets won WWII with masses of cheap weapons and simplistic > > tactics. Making the T-34/85 a few years earlier would achieve more then > > a few super tanks. > > > > The best use of high tech to improve WWII would be satellites (or high > > orbit UAV's) and networked logistics. Market Garden failure was down to > > poor logistics. > > Sorry, you missed the point. I was mainly talking about what a very small group of "space men" and their ship could have done reasonably in that situation. Even a very few spy or comunications sats would have taken more tech than could be cobbled together from one small space ship. While upgradeing a factory, or even several, to produce year 2000+ engines for helecopters would have been trivial. Boot straping the electronics era in the WW1 era would have been nearly imposible due to the ammount of supporting technologies that would have to also be boot strapped. But high grade light engines for choppers and/or aircraft is mostly limited by tollerences in the machine processes available at that time. The best use of the available computing power would be to improve a factory to produce a product that could tip the balence of the war. By your own statement above you yourself say as much. But satalites are not simple easy to produce things, and they take a lot more than just improved machining. The same would apply to SAMs, to much electronics to boot strap. You could manage a LAWs rocket factory, an engine factory for helecopters, Jets, or better prop engines. And Gatling guns would be very easy if you already had the plans on file. You could also just give your side the modern tank tread clutch (it took a long time to get that one right) or the design for the M1A1 engine. It could not be built properly without modern machining, but then you would be helping there as well. Boot strapping the micro electronics industry would take advances in 100s of support technologies. It would take longer than the war would last. A simpler solution would be to use the ships systems to build a very small number of A-bombs, to remove key targets. Even one such weapon could tip the balence. Think of how things might have turned out if the attack on Perl Habor had been made with a high megaton nuke, particularly a dirty one that would have denighed the US the use of Perl and it's facilaties for the rest of the War. Charles L. > > -- > > the_raptor > > "As for sniping... Dude, I was a freaking sniper! > > It's what I do!" - Doug Berry > > > > _______________________________________________ > > TML mailing list > > TML at travellercentral.com > > http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml > > > > Erm, > > I thought the failure of Market Garden was due to a number of factors, not > least of which was the terrible prevalence of fog in the South of England > after the initial drop of the British 1st Airborne. This prevented > reinforcement by the Polish until Thursday, September 21st > (IIRC). The other > main factor in the faiure of the assault was, as correctly > pointed out, the > inadequacy of the Dutch road system, which prevented XXX Corps > moving up to > Arnhem swiftly enough to intevene in the battle for the bridge across the > Rhine. > > It's an interesting thought to imagine what difference helicopters would > have made, though. What about 60 or 70 ATGMs? Or man-portable integrated > radio system, allowing integrated command & control of dispersed units? Or > even a NAW capability for aircraft? > > -Tom > > -- > Blessed are the cheapskates, for they shall see god and still > have change of > a fiver - Tom Holt, Valhalla. > > Want Googlemail? Ask me & I'll invite you! > _______________________________________________ > TML mailing list > TML at travellercentral.com > http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.39/1044 - Release Date: > 10/2/2007 11:10 AM > No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.39/1044 - Release Date: 10/2/2007 11:10 AM From prevattec at bellsouth.net Tue Oct 2 14:54:23 2007 From: prevattec at bellsouth.net (Charles Prevatte) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 16:54:23 -0400 Subject: [TML] Molding Ships In-Reply-To: <270030C754582B458D8E7BF9EBDE7A4F03D79F79@YTO1VEXC001.ibmcahostedmail.net> Message-ID: ATGM are not practical unless you are assuming the "space men" came in legion force levels with a massive space ship and lots of on board factory capacity. I was assuming a small group on ONE side with a small ship and a good library package. Say a TL 11 commecial ship or perhaps just a life boat with the survivers personal electronics and perhaps one of them is an engineer. ATGM would take recreating 1970s level electronics at the least. That would take 10+ years assuming 1940s tube technology. It takes time to build up a base of train personel to build totally new things. A transister would be near magic to most 1940s personel, while an engine that had a better compression ratio is perfectly understandable, even if the way the better tolerences are achieved is a bit of a mistery. In the case of the transiter you have to train the entire production staff and the users. In the case of the engine, a few people to help in the final assembly have to learn a new trick or two that is very close to what they already are doing. There is a very large difference in scale. Look at the engine in the Wright brothers plane. Today we have better and more powerfull engines in leaf blowers and lawnmowers, but the basic principle is exactly the same. No new concepts to learn, just refinements. Charles L. > -----Original Message----- > From: tml-bounces at travellercentral.com > [mailto:tml-bounces at travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Leon Wu > Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 2:07 PM > To: The Traveller Mailing List > Subject: Re: [TML] Molding Ships > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: tml-bounces at travellercentral.com [mailto:tml- > > bounces at travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Tom Cusworth > > Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 1:57 PM > > To: The Traveller Mailing List > > Subject: Re: [TML] Molding Ships > > > > Erm, > > > > I thought the failure of Market Garden was due to a number of factors, > not > > least of which was the terrible prevalence of fog in the South of > England > > after the initial drop of the British 1st Airborne. This prevented > > reinforcement by the Polish until Thursday, September 21st (IIRC). The > > other > > main factor in the faiure of the assault was, as correctly pointed > out, > > the > > inadequacy of the Dutch road system, which prevented XXX Corps moving > up > > to > > Arnhem swiftly enough to intevene in the battle for the bridge across > the > > Rhine. > > > > It's an interesting thought to imagine what difference helicopters > would > > have made, though. What about 60 or 70 ATGMs? Or man-portable > integrated > > radio system, allowing integrated command & control of dispersed > units? Or > > even a NAW capability for aircraft? > > > > -Tom > > Lets not forget the nearby presence of two SS Panzer divisions > (understrengt though they may be). Now if we're handing the allies > modern attack helicopters, what would happen if the Germans had ATGM's? > Forget about XXX Corp then. Or the effect of Manpads to allied airpower? > > > _______________________________________________ > TML mailing list > TML at travellercentral.com > http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.39/1044 - Release Date: > 10/2/2007 11:10 AM > No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.39/1044 - Release Date: 10/2/2007 11:10 AM From prevattec at bellsouth.net Tue Oct 2 14:54:21 2007 From: prevattec at bellsouth.net (Charles Prevatte) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 16:54:21 -0400 Subject: [TML] Molding Ships In-Reply-To: <270030C754582B458D8E7BF9EBDE7A4F03D79FA7@YTO1VEXC001.ibmcahostedmail.net> Message-ID: > > Good point. There were many breakthroughs in trench warfare but usually > never exploited because the following waves would get bogged down and > attrited trying to cross no-man's land. No, not really. Trench warfare came about because of the invention of the machine gun. That ended the effectiveness of the "charge" tactic across open grond that was effective against slower firing weaponry. Trench warfare was the result of not having a good counter to massed machine gun fire. Counter that and trench warfare ends messily as the French and the Magiot Line learned the hard way. Things that would end trench war fair Better air power: Galting guns to increase straffing power, better engine so plane could be larger can carry more weaponry(Think puff the magic dragon from the veitnam era) or helecopters. No WW1 aircraft could fight a 1970 Huey gun ship. They could not even keep up with it. WW1 aircraft were slow. Napalm and a means to deliver it. (Bigger planes and engines.) The Tank tread clutch and modern tread linkages (the real problems in WW1 tank design). White phospherious grenades (mostly for the smoke.) More accurate artillery, better shells for the artillery, more choices of shells, and FOs with better field phones. Paratroopers and the planes to carry them. To heck with the treanches fly over them. All of these things were what prevented trench warfare from occuring in WW2. It did happen after a fashion in places that forced the issue like Stalingrad. The Germans had to go through there and the Russains dug in regardless of the cost, because not doing so was to loose. The German war machine devourered 3M+ russians. The russians lost more people than all other combants combined (See last months WW2 magazine for exact numbers. My copy is at home.) So if better tanks and aircraft stopped trench warfare in WW2 then having it in WW1 would have broken through it then as well as, supposedly, all sides learned how to fight trench warefare in WW1 very well, and should have been very good at it by WW2, but of course it did not happen that way in WW2 as weapons changed and the tactics changed with the weapons, trenches did not work. Charles L. No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.39/1044 - Release Date: 10/2/2007 11:10 AM From prevattec at bellsouth.net Tue Oct 2 14:54:25 2007 From: prevattec at bellsouth.net (Charles Prevatte) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 16:54:25 -0400 Subject: [TML] Molding Ships In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I'm not sure that airdropped napalm would be all that effective > against men sheltered below ground level in trenches. If the aircraft > got a direct hit then you'd kill the men in one particular bay of the > trench. No more. In other words, apart from the terror factor, not > really any more effective than an artillery bombardment. > The whole point of napalm is that you can not hide from it. If you are in a bunker underground you still die, just of suffication. Napalm was designed as a bunker killer. Just like with flame throwers, a direct hit was not needed. The only real defence against a naplam strike in a sealed bunker with it's own air supply. As for the planes, well those would have had to be upgraded first as their payload in that time period (WW1) was a few hundred pounds. Bombs at that point were often hand dropped, and the fighters were armed with 2 lewis guns (at best) with a lower cyclic rate than a WW2 tommy gun. Fortunately for the pilots of that era they did not generally carry enough ammo to melt the barrels of their guns. A common problem for their army buddies that had to keep firing for longer periods of time to stop the current "over the top" charge. WW1 was a very different war from WW2. Most of us today would have a hard time understanding the problems involved in fighting WW1. Even army trucks were relatively new and breakdown prone. Many ships were coal fired steam ships, and torpedos were very very new things that were hard to get hits with and were almost solely the providence of the Germans. Remember in WW1 warships were basicly airplane proof. In WW2 one airplane could cripple or kill the biggest ship afloat. The Bizmark in WW2 was crippled by one Swordfish torpedo plane (a bi-plane). A lot of the weaponry we think about as being part of WW2 was in fact not available untill late in the war. We started with far less effective weapons. The USA did not even have a heavy tank until the last 18 months of the war in europe (the Panther) and our Shermans and Stewarts took a terrible beating from the Panzer and Tigers with their bigger guns and heavier armor. One fameous US tank commander had 3 tanks shot out from under him in one day. What we had was more. More of everything, compared to the Germans and a safe place to build everything. The USA has been very lucky, we have never had to fight a world war on our own soil. Charles L. No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.39/1044 - Release Date: 10/2/2007 11:10 AM From Leon.Wu at newswire.ca Tue Oct 2 15:02:19 2007 From: Leon.Wu at newswire.ca (Leon Wu) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 17:02:19 -0400 Subject: [TML] Molding Ships In-Reply-To: References: <270030C754582B458D8E7BF9EBDE7A4F03D79FA7@YTO1VEXC001.ibmcahostedmail.net> Message-ID: <270030C754582B458D8E7BF9EBDE7A4F03D7A27F@YTO1VEXC001.ibmcahostedmail.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: tml-bounces at travellercentral.com [mailto:tml- > bounces at travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Charles Prevatte > Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 4:54 PM > To: The Traveller Mailing List > Subject: Re: [TML] Molding Ships > > No, not really. Trench warfare came about because of the invention of the > machine gun. That ended the effectiveness of the "charge" tactic across > open > grond that was effective against slower firing weaponry. Trench warfare > was > the result of not having a good counter to massed machine gun fire. > Counter > that and trench warfare ends messily as the French and the Magiot Line > learned the hard way. No, I was referring to after the initial attacking force had captured the enemy's trenches. In theory the 2nd wave was supposed to leap-frog the 1st wave and advance into the enemy's rear. In practice the 2nd waves would get hammered by the artillery that pounded no-man's land (to prevent reserves from moving up) and then get mixed up with the remnants of the first wave, cohesion and order would be lost. I would also add quick-firing artillery and barbed wire as other inventions that lead to trench warfare. No objections that tech would solve this problem. However in 1918 the Germans just used different tactics to win, had they tried this in 1915 the war (and the world) would be very different. From Leon.Wu at newswire.ca Tue Oct 2 15:13:42 2007 From: Leon.Wu at newswire.ca (Leon Wu) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 17:13:42 -0400 Subject: [TML] Spam: Re: Molding Ships In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <270030C754582B458D8E7BF9EBDE7A4F03D7A2A3@YTO1VEXC001.ibmcahostedmail.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: tml-bounces at travellercentral.com [mailto:tml- > bounces at travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Charles Prevatte > Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 4:54 PM > To: The Traveller Mailing List > Subject: Spam: Re: [TML] Molding Ships > > We started with far less effective weapons. The USA did not > even > have a heavy tank until the last 18 months of the war in europe (the > Panther) and our Shermans and Stewarts took a terrible beating from the > Panzer and Tigers with their bigger guns and heavier armor. One fameous > US > tank commander had 3 tanks shot out from under him in one day. What we > had > was more. More of everything, compared to the Germans and a safe place to > build everything. The USA has been very lucky, we have never had to fight > a > world war on our own soil. Ummm, I think you meant the US did not have the PERSHING until the last few months of the war (wikipedia says it entered service in Feb 1945). Either that or the Germans left the keys in the tank... From ajackson at iii.com Tue Oct 2 15:39:04 2007 From: ajackson at iii.com (Anthony Jackson) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2007 14:39:04 -0700 Subject: [TML] Molding Ships In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4702BA78.3020705@iii.com> Charles Prevatte wrote: > The only real defence against a naplam strike in a sealed bunker with it's > own air supply. Not really. Napalm is scary in the area it hits, but that area simply isn't that big, and there's ways to minimize the threatened area. From shadow at shadowgard.com Tue Oct 2 15:32:52 2007 From: shadow at shadowgard.com (shadow at shadowgard.com) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2007 14:32:52 -0700 Subject: [TML] UFO ( was Re: Trade Tables [SEC=UNOFFICIAL]) In-Reply-To: <000f01c804dd$be266550$ea2d4b0c@YOURFEDDA97C02> References: , <000f01c804dd$be266550$ea2d4b0c@YOURFEDDA97C02> Message-ID: <47025694.20991.D73B3D4@shadow.shadowgard.com> On 2 Oct 2007 at 6:19, Garry Ward wrote: > From: > > > On 2 Oct 2007 at 13:36, david.d.jaques-watson at centrel wrote: > > > >> Dear Folks - > >> > >> Leonard replied to Stuart: > >> >>But the best was UFO, of Shadow fame. > >> > > >> >SHADO actually. > >> > >> "10 years...I've given 10 years of sweat and sacrifice to get SHADO > >> running the way I want it. And I won't let some young punk like you mess > >> things up!" > >> - Lt. Col. Straker > >> > >> Cool show! > > > > Occurs to me that UFO could be reworked into an "interesting" > > Traveller adventure. > > > > Instead of Earth, have a world outside the Imperial borders. They > > haven't been contacted by anybody but the organlegger "pirates" that > > have been raiding them for years (a higher TL world nearby). > > > Why not Earth? If I recall correctly, there is some mystery as to why the > first extra solar trip via Jump drive went to Barnard's star instead of > Alpha Centuri. One theory was that there were those in the government that > knew about the aliens. > > My own sketchy notes on a Traveller: UFO game involved some clandestine > raiding by Vilani seeking exotic ... entertainers .... for the wealthy and > powerful. It involved a game starting out as a Twilight:2000 based Merc > adventure (PCs would be police, FBI or DEA) that lead the PCs to finding out > that fly saucers were real and putting them in the position of Colonel > Straker. Interesting. But I was thinking more of a setup in the "traditional" time periods for Traveller. >> The players misjump into the system and have to deal with >> SHADO.... -- Leonard Erickson (aka shadow) shadow at shadowgard dot com From shadow at shadowgard.com Tue Oct 2 15:32:52 2007 From: shadow at shadowgard.com (shadow at shadowgard.com) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2007 14:32:52 -0700 Subject: [TML] Molding Ships In-Reply-To: References: <7EC309F4-D772-4589-9A4C-6D34F7983664@pharmacy.arizona.edu>, Message-ID: <47025694.9448.D73B24D@shadow.shadowgard.com> On 2 Oct 2007 at 8:59, Charles Prevatte wrote: > Doubtfull. > > I was assuming a helecopter closer to the Vetnam era Huey's armed with > gatlin guns on the skid and in the doors. That's "Gatling" (it's the name of the inventor). And the motorized versions aren't usually referred to as "gatlings". Thing is, the main reason the Army used helicopters in combat was that they needed air support that *they* controlled. /In a more rational setup, they'd have been using A-10 Warthogs for a lot of that. > The tracking speed of a flank panzer was not all that great even for it's > time and against pop up attacks with 6000 RPM cyclic rate 7.62 MM rounds > that open turret would quickly become a coffin. The Flack panzer was not > very effective even against contemporary aircraft and tactic. Also, such a > helecopter could carry combat teams with snipers, bazzookas, and demolition > teams to ruin an enemies day from behind the lines. Helecopters unlike WW2 > gliders and paratroopers can move after they land, and provide their troops > a lot of close support firepower even inside towns. It would also not have > taken much to adapt the recoilless rifles of that day for use on these > Helecopters for anti tank work. Warthogs are much better for anti-tank work 20mm (or is it 30?) autocannon tend to do that. And unlike a helicopter, they can fight off the fighters that would be sent against them. If the VC had had an air force we'd not have used helicopters *nearly* as much. > As for the nepalm idea, bomb sites would not have been all that necessary in > WW1. A low pass with a single large bomb, that spread on impact like modern > naplam dropped weapons would open a large whole in the lines. Actually, that's not as likely as you think. Not more than once or twice. WWI trenches after the first few gas attacks were set up with a lot of shelters that would have saved a lot of the troops for at least a bit. And getting the side *using* the napalm to exploit the hole is going to be a problem. Note the trouble that both sides had exploiting holes like that after poison gas came into use. speaking of which, it'd likely be easier to use one of the skin contact nerve gases. Even if the existing masks will work against it, you need a full coverage suit to be safe. If it's low persistence, you can move in your troops without protective gear. > You would only need a few such surprises to gain a tactical advantage that > you could turn into a strategic victory. And remember that the "space men" > would have all of history including what we would consider the furture to > use for reference. But exploiting them requires that the *locals* be flexible enough to exploit the advantages. History shows that this is *not* easy. > Think about operation Market Garden. What would a dozen Huey's gunships > with gatlin guns have done to hold the "bridge to far"? Each helecopter > could have brought in 12 new soilders and equipment per trip and provided > close air support on the way out. Add to this that they could have deployed > combat engineers behind the enemy to take out bridges that allowed > reinforcement to reach the bridge and overwhelm the partroopers trying to > hold it. Except the Luftwaffe would have shot the hell out of them. Hueys are *not* terribly survivable against even WWII fighters. -- Leonard Erickson (aka shadow) shadow at shadowgard dot com From shadow at shadowgard.com Tue Oct 2 15:32:52 2007 From: shadow at shadowgard.com (shadow at shadowgard.com) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2007 14:32:52 -0700 Subject: [TML] UFO ( was Re: Trade Tables [SEC=UNOFFICIAL]) In-Reply-To: <1832b5750710020511vc825da4x6732826b4c18a26e@mail.gmail.com> References: <200710021111.l92BBlx7014903@omr10.networksolutionsemail.com>, <1832b5750710020511vc825da4x6732826b4c18a26e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47025694.20831.D73B54B@shadow.shadowgard.com> On 2 Oct 2007 at 20:11, Michael Jenkins wrote: > On 02/10/2007, Peter L.S. Trevor wrote: > > > > Shadow wrote: > > > Occurs to me that UFO could be > > > reworked into an "interesting" > > > Traveller adventure. > > > > > > Instead of Earth, have a world outside > > > the Imperial borders. They haven't been > > > contacted by anybody but the > > > organlegger "pirates" that have been > > > raiding them for years (a higher TL > > > world nearby). > > > > > > The players misjump into the system > > > and have to deal with SHADO.... > > > > For twisted First Contact scenarios that could be run in Traveller > > check out Crusade episode 12 ("Visitors From Down The Street") > > ... which was actually pretty good ... The players encounter a > > lifeboat with a pair of aliens onboard. The aliens are convinced > > the players are involved with their government in a conspiracy to > > supress the truth about other worlds. > > [shudder] ... Urgh.gh.gh.gh.gh ... [shudder] ... Crusade ... [shudder] > > *Loved* Babylon 5, but definitely *not* Crusade. Something about the > Technomage character I personally found extremely annoying ... the > supercilious pontificating git! ;-) > > I'm not entirely sure what it was about him that annoyed me and why, > but am I alone in this? He fit the part of a technomage. They are "supposed" to be that way. > Other than that, it would have been alright! :) Well, try watching the episode in question. You see, it's a "ripoff" of X-Files. Only they barely bothered to paint over the serial numbers (on purpose). -- Leonard Erickson (aka shadow) shadow at shadowgard dot com From royce at efn.org Tue Oct 2 15:43:53 2007 From: royce at efn.org (royce at efn.org) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 14:43:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [TML] Roup, Amber, Cause, Query. Message-ID: <49507.158.165.144.181.1191361433.squirrel@webmail.efn.org> Thank you. Asher From martin-j.dougherty at virgin.net Tue Oct 2 16:10:28 2007 From: martin-j.dougherty at virgin.net (MJ Dougherty) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 23:10:28 +0100 Subject: [TML] OT: Query regarding UK PBM game from the '80's References: <4b5cc71a0710021043n6e8c58c7jf8ad580f2600257d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <004501c80541$0b4c44e0$c9421f56@DF8Y032J> I recall seeing a review of this game. Damned if I can recall the name though. > In the mid-'80's (around 1985 or so) one of my secondary school teachers > played a Play-by-mail game. I'd like to run a version of it for a group of > friends via email. There's two problems I have, though... I can't remember > the name and do not have a copy of the rules... > > So, if I describe the premise, then perhaps the collected wisdom of the > TML > may be able to furnish me with the details I need. > > Without further ado: > > It was set in Britain after an apocalyptic event (not sure if this was > post-nuke or not). Civilisation has collapsed and infrastructure is > non-existent. > > Each player is in control of a group of survivors, who each have a number > of > skill sets (an engineer, a doctor, a chemist as well as a number of > "ordinary people"etc) and are in control of an area of the British isles > (a > couple of square kilometers or so) where they have to build a community, > and > resist the attempts of the other players to sabotage said efforts by means > of raiding, spying and such underhanded deeds. > > I think each turn was either a week of game time or a month at the > outside. > I also think the game (since it was PBM only at the time) was only run in > the UK. > > Can anyone help me with either the name of the PBM or a link for the > rules? > > Thank you in advance, > > -Tom > > -- > Blessed are the cheapskates, for they shall see god and still have change > of > a fiver - Tom Holt, Valhalla. > > Want Googlemail? Ask me & I'll invite you! > _______________________________________________ > TML mailing list > TML at travellercentral.com > http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml From david.d.jaques-watson at centrelink.gov.au Tue Oct 2 17:41:22 2007 From: david.d.jaques-watson at centrelink.gov.au (david.d.jaques-watson at centrelink.gov.au) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 09:41:22 +1000 Subject: [TML] Roup, Amber, Cause, Query. [SEC=UNOFFICIAL] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Folks - Asher asked: >I hope I'm not mixing up Roup & Ruie again -- I mean the waterworld in >Regina subsector. Roup is the waterworld on the X-Boat route coreward of Regina. Ruie is the amber zone outside Imperial territory where Sergei Oberlindes was imprisoned ("Rescue on Ruie", etc). >My question is, what danger makes Roup an amber zone? >If you happen to know what CT canon sources, if any, have plentiful >information on Roup, that knowledge, too, would be helpful. >From memory, there was an early Amber Zone scenario on Roup that involved the locals ambushing a food shipment that the PC's were delivering ("Foodrunner", maybe?). (searches Google for "Foodrunner" and "Roup") Y'know, it turns out there's something on *my* site about it. I had forgotten that I reformatted and posted (with permission) the late Clay Bush's "All JTAS Amber Zones in nugget format" page. Go to my website, then: ==> The Best of the TML ==> Amber Zone ==> Amber Zone - All JTAS Amber Zones in nugget format (JTAS 1 to 24) ==> Foodrunner (Oh well, at least I remembered that the scenario *existed*). ;-) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson ..at.. Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520) http://www.pcug.org.au/~davidjw davidjw ..at.. pcug.org.au "I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity" ------------------------------------------------------------------------ REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ********************************************************************** IMPORTANT: This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege. If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament. If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments. ********************************************************************** From tom.cusworth at googlemail.com Tue Oct 2 18:20:48 2007 From: tom.cusworth at googlemail.com (Tom Cusworth) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 01:20:48 +0100 Subject: [TML] OT: Query regarding UK PBM game from the '80's In-Reply-To: <004501c80541$0b4c44e0$c9421f56@DF8Y032J> References: <4b5cc71a0710021043n6e8c58c7jf8ad580f2600257d@mail.gmail.com> <004501c80541$0b4c44e0$c9421f56@DF8Y032J> Message-ID: <4b5cc71a0710021720x6932cf53y7dbc9f4fa8823994@mail.gmail.com> Thanks Martin! Anyone else, though? -Tom On 02/10/2007, MJ Dougherty wrote: > > I recall seeing a review of this game. Damned if I can recall the name > though. > > > In the mid-'80's (around 1985 or so) one of my secondary school teachers > > played a Play-by-mail game. I'd like to run a version of it for a group > of > > friends via email. There's two problems I have, though... I can't > remember > > the name and do not have a copy of the rules... > > > > So, if I describe the premise, then perhaps the collected wisdom of the > > TML > > may be able to furnish me with the details I need. > > > > Without further ado: > > > > It was set in Britain after an apocalyptic event (not sure if this was > > post-nuke or not). Civilisation has collapsed and infrastructure is > > non-existent. > > > > Each player is in control of a group of survivors, who each have a > number > > of > > skill sets (an engineer, a doctor, a chemist as well as a number of > > "ordinary people"etc) and are in control of an area of the British isles > > (a > > couple of square kilometers or so) where they have to build a community, > > and > > resist the attempts of the other players to sabotage said efforts by > means > > of raiding, spying and such underhanded deeds. > > > > I think each turn was either a week of game time or a month at the > > outside. > > I also think the game (since it was PBM only at the time) was only run > in > > the UK. > > > > Can anyone help me with either the name of the PBM or a link for the > > rules? > > > > Thank you in advance, > > > > -Tom > > > > -- > > Blessed are the cheapskates, for they shall see god and still have > change > > of > > a fiver - Tom Holt, Valhalla. > > > > Want Googlemail? Ask me & I'll invite you! > > _______________________________________________ > > TML mailing list > > TML at travellercentral.com > > http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml > > _______________________________________________ > TML mailing list > TML at travellercentral.com > http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml > -- Blessed are the cheapskates, for they shall see god and still have change of a fiver - Tom Holt, Valhalla. Want Googlemail? Ask me & I'll invite you! From raikenclw at gmail.com Tue Oct 2 19:01:36 2007 From: raikenclw at gmail.com (Richard Aiken) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 21:01:36 -0400 Subject: [TML] an interesting story somewhat related to this thing we do In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5aca9be50710021801v452231b5ndd9a020c71e66bb@mail.gmail.com> On 10/2/07, GDWGAMES at aol.com wrote: > All I was able to determine is that the phrase is totally unrelated to the > phrase "Stand in the liver" . . . LOL! Someone with worse google foo than me! I thought that was impossible! :-) -- Richard Aiken "Never insult anyone by accident." Robert A. Heinlein From raikenclw at gmail.com Tue Oct 2 19:10:46 2007 From: raikenclw at gmail.com (Richard Aiken) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 21:10:46 -0400 Subject: [TML] an interesting story somewhat related to this thing we do In-Reply-To: <708178.68437.qm@web34804.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <708178.68437.qm@web34804.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5aca9be50710021810p33e8f4c3we7579d2f0f311faf@mail.gmail.com> On 10/2/07, Glenn M. Goffin wrote: > The Edward James Olmos movie's version of the meaning of the phrase > is, as we say in my profession, just plain wrong. Given how concepts change over time (after all, "awful" used to mean "filled with awe [at the power of God]") . . . And the original post (pirates demanding surrender of loot) . . . The pirates are from a part of Imperial culture where the historical origin of the relevant phrase was transmitted correctly. Their prospective victims are from an area where it was transmitted incorrectly. Confusion - and attendent disaster - promptly ensues. -- Richard Aiken "Never insult anyone by accident." Robert A. Heinlein From darvedd at gmail.com Tue Oct 2 19:13:41 2007 From: darvedd at gmail.com (Michael Jenkins) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 09:13:41 +0800 Subject: [TML] an interesting story somewhat related to this thing we do In-Reply-To: <5aca9be50710021801v452231b5ndd9a020c71e66bb@mail.gmail.com> References: <5aca9be50710021801v452231b5ndd9a020c71e66bb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1832b5750710021813y3847317cj213d542530f7da9f@mail.gmail.com> On 03/10/2007, Richard Aiken wrote: > On 10/2/07, GDWGAMES at aol.com wrote: > > All I was able to determine is that the phrase is totally unrelated to the > > phrase "Stand in the liver" . . . > > LOL! > > Someone with worse google foo than me! I thought that was impossible! :-) Minor picky point ... I always thought of it as google-fu! :) -- Regards, Michael Jenkins -- No person should call themselves free, While they are enslaved by fear, or greed, or hate. -- From raikenclw at gmail.com Tue Oct 2 19:16:12 2007 From: raikenclw at gmail.com (Richard Aiken) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 21:16:12 -0400 Subject: [TML] Spam: Re: Molding Ships In-Reply-To: <270030C754582B458D8E7BF9EBDE7A4F03D7A2A3@YTO1VEXC001.ibmcahostedmail.net> References: <270030C754582B458D8E7BF9EBDE7A4F03D7A2A3@YTO1VEXC001.ibmcahostedmail.net> Message-ID: <5aca9be50710021816u6f2c473dva2eb62750213df0e@mail.gmail.com> On 10/2/07, Leon Wu wrote: > Ummm, I think you meant the US did not have the PERSHING until the last > few months of the war (wikipedia says it entered service in Feb 1945). > Either that or the Germans left the keys in the tank... He undoubtedly did. But ISTR that neither side was shy about using the others equipment, if it proved to be handy. German field officers loved to get their hands on Jeeps, for instance. And I definitely recall seeing a photo of a line of U.S. tanks headed into battle: Sherman, Sherman, Sherman, Panther (with HUGE U.S. battle stars painted on it), Sherman, Sherman, Sherman . . . -- Richard Aiken "Never insult anyone by accident." Robert A. Heinlein From whopper at pobox.com Tue Oct 2 20:03:58 2007 From: whopper at pobox.com (William Hopper) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2007 21:03:58 -0500 Subject: [TML] an interesting story somewhat related to this thing we do In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4702F88E.5000705@pobox.com> alan hume wrote: >>There are several military references where it>>is used to>mean standing up against enemy fire and firing back, which is>>the meaning you remember. >> >> > >I never knew that at all, I thought that you meant something like the 18th or 19th century at first when you said that, standing up in the face of enemy fire to deliver a volley seems really, really dangerous in terms of twentieth century warfare (on which I am not qualified to speak) thus I thought it was something from the Napoleonic or Horse and Musket era. > >Was this a term from WW2? > > The earliest reference I found is that it is the motto of the 785th Military Police Battalion, which was originally formed in 1942. There was no info on when the motto was adopted. All other references were from the 1980s and later. "Stand" in the modern usage seems to be as in stand your ground, not literally standing up, which would be really stupid. In my original post, I meant "standing up against enemy fire" as in keeping your wits about you and not breaking down. From shadow at shadowgard.com Tue Oct 2 20:05:31 2007 From: shadow at shadowgard.com (shadow at shadowgard.com) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2007 19:05:31 -0700 Subject: [TML] Molding Ships In-Reply-To: References: <270030C754582B458D8E7BF9EBDE7A4F03D79F79@YTO1VEXC001.ibmcahostedmail.net>, Message-ID: <4702967B.24683.E6E53FC@shadow.shadowgard.com> On 2 Oct 2007 at 16:54, Charles Prevatte wrote: > ATGM are not practical unless you are assuming the "space men" came in > legion force levels with a massive space ship and lots of on board factory > capacity. > > I was assuming a small group on ONE side with a small ship and a good > library package. Say a TL 11 commecial ship or perhaps just a life boat > with the survivers personal electronics and perhaps one of them is an > engineer. > > ATGM would take recreating 1970s level electronics at the least. That would > take 10+ years assuming 1940s tube technology. It takes time to build up a > base of train personel to build totally new things. Actually, no. They were building them *in* WWII. TV guided missiles were actually used. Mostly air-to ground. Radar proximity fuzes are arguably harder to build. And were mass produced. > A transister would be near magic to most 1940s personel, while an engine > that had a better compression ratio is perfectly understandable, even if the > way the better tolerences are achieved is a bit of a mistery. The original patent for a transistor was before WWI. It was a modified "crystal detector". It was forgotten because theory couldn't explain it, so nobody knew how to improve it. > In the case of the transiter you have to train the entire production staff > and the users. Nope. The users don't care. It's a black box anyway. Just a smaller one that uses less power. Production staff is much the same. The only people you have to train are the folks producing the transistors. And that doesn't take as long as you might think. But it'd take too long to build the equipment to produce a significant number of transistors. Then again, it'll tak a while to redo that factory full of machine tools. But building gear *using* transistors is no big deal. Designing it is harder, but the "space men" can do that for you. > In the case of the engine, a few people to help in the final assembly have > to learn a new trick or two that is very close to what they already are > doing. > > There is a very large difference in scale. Trust me, there are a *lot* of things that will be "minor" but very important changes. > Look at the engine in the Wright brothers plane. Today we have better and > more powerfull engines in leaf blowers and lawnmowers, but the basic > principle is exactly the same. No new concepts to learn, just refinements. Too many of the things you want to build require new materials. Like the turbine engines in the copter and the M1A1 tank. -- Leonard Erickson (aka shadow) shadow at shadowgard dot com From shadow at shadowgard.com Tue Oct 2 20:05:30 2007 From: shadow at shadowgard.com (shadow at shadowgard.com) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2007 19:05:30 -0700 Subject: [TML] Molding Ships In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <4702967A.8371.E6E5295@shadow.shadowgard.com> On 2 Oct 2007 at 16:54, Charles Prevatte wrote: > > > I'm not sure that airdropped napalm would be all that effective > > against men sheltered below ground level in trenches. If the aircraft > > got a direct hit then you'd kill the men in one particular bay of the > > trench. No more. In other words, apart from the terror factor, not > > really any more effective than an artillery bombardment. > > > > > The whole point of napalm is that you can not hide from it. If you are in a > bunker underground you still die, just of suffication. Napalm was designed > as a bunker killer. Just like with flame throwers, a direct hit was not > needed. > > The only real defence against a naplam strike in a sealed bunker with it's > own air supply. Have you ever looked at how WWI trench lines were set up? Napalm wouldn't be all that effective because of the ways they were dug in, > As for the planes, well those would have had to be upgraded first as their > payload in that time period (WW1) was a few hundred pounds. Bombs at that > point were often hand dropped, and the fighters were armed with 2 lewis guns > (at best) with a lower cyclic rate than a WW2 tommy gun. Fortunately for > the pilots of that era they did not generally carry enough ammo to melt the > barrels of their guns. A common problem for their army buddies that had to > keep firing for longer periods of time to stop the current "over the top" > charge. WW1 was a very different war from WW2. Most of us today would have > a hard time understanding the problems involved in fighting WW1. A few hundred pounds of napalm is *not* going to kill that much trench. Nor can it be targeted that accurately without risking the plane. -- Leonard Erickson (aka shadow) shadow at shadowgard dot com From shadow at shadowgard.com Tue Oct 2 20:05:30 2007 From: shadow at shadowgard.com (shadow at shadowgard.com) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2007 19:05:30 -0700 Subject: [TML] Molding Ships In-Reply-To: References: <4b5cc71a0710021056g3e483789sb503c7553d08dced@mail.gmail.com>, Message-ID: <4702967A.21777.E6E511E@shadow.shadowgard.com> On 2 Oct 2007 at 16:35, Charles Prevatte wrote: > Sorry, you missed the point. I was mainly talking about what a very small > group of "space men" and their ship could have done reasonably in that > situation. Even a very few spy or comunications sats would have taken more > tech than could be cobbled together from one small space ship. While > upgradeing a factory, or even several, to produce year 2000+ engines for > helecopters would have been trivial. Boot straping the electronics era in > the WW1 era would have been nearly imposible due to the ammount of > supporting technologies that would have to also be boot strapped. But high > grade light engines for choppers and/or aircraft is mostly limited by > tollerences in the machine processes available at that time. The best use > of the available computing power would be to improve a factory to produce a > product that could tip the balence of the war. By your own statement above > you yourself say as much. But satalites are not simple easy to produce > things, and they take a lot more than just improved machining. The same > would apply to SAMs, to much electronics to boot strap. You could manage a > LAWs rocket factory, an engine factory for helecopters, Jets, or better prop > engines. And Gatling guns would be very easy if you already had the plans > on file. Actually, if the spaceship can still fly (say it's the jump drive that failed) Satellites will be well within the capability of the locals. It's *launching* that's the biggest headache. For that matter, the better machining *would* allow stuff like ICBMs and orbital spacecraft from WWII tech. > Boot strapping the micro electronics industry would take advances in 100s of > support technologies. It would take longer than the war would last. Actually, there are several tricks that will improve things a lot. Composition resistors to replace the wire wound ones that were in use in the early 30s is an *easy* change. But it'd make a *huge* difference. So would digital designs (even if tube based) rather than analog. There are a lot of things that are really hard to do with analog design, but easy to do with digital. And given design help, I expect that micro-"tube" designs like TIMMs would be doable. Basically a large, heated "brick" with *tube* circuits using dime sized tubes and everything arranged tightly in a dense, 3D package. > A simpler solution would be to use the ships systems to build a very small > number of A-bombs, to remove key targets. Even one such weapon could tip > the balence. Think of how things might have turned out if the attack on > Perl Habor had been made with a high megaton nuke, particularly a dirty one > that would have denighed the US the use of Perl and it's facilaties for the > rest of the War. Building an A-bomb is easy. Getting the fissionables *isn't*. And the ship's systems will be essentially useless for that. A dirty nuke wouldn't have much area denial potential. *Especially* with WWII sensibilities about "safety". Get some volunteers to bulldoze dirt over the worst spots. hose off the rest, and worry about *maybe* getting cancer later. If the ship is flayable, just drop big rocks on them from orbit. A reactor is easier to build. And you can take a page out of Henlein's "Solution: Unsatisfactory" and create dirty bombs using various isotopes. And it may well be that weapons grade lasers are buildable with local tech (depends on how Traveller lasers work). Even if only ground based and ship mounted ones are the best you can do, they pretty much make air attacks (and a lot of surface attacks) impossible. A weapons emplacement that can kill anything mobile at line-of-sight ranges is going to be a great defense. -- Leonard Erickson (aka shadow) shadow at shadowgard dot com From carlino at cox.net Tue Oct 2 20:12:51 2007 From: carlino at cox.net (Terry Carlino) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2007 22:12:51 -0400 Subject: [TML] Molding Ships In-Reply-To: <001501c8050c$70f37910$d62b4b0c@YOURFEDDA97C02> References: <4702664E.3090800@yahoo.com.au> <001501c8050c$70f37910$d62b4b0c@YOURFEDDA97C02> Message-ID: <4702FAA3.20804@cox.net> > Poor logistics tends to be one of the key elements in failure of any > military operation. As critical as the actual combat troops are to success, > the inability to > a) get them to where they need to be > b) with enough supplies and ammo > c) the continued ability to repeat a & b > > Amateurs study tactics. Professionals study logistics. -- TerryC All that is Gold does not glitter Not all who travel are lost From erisred at bellsouth.net Tue Oct 2 20:58:51 2007 From: erisred at bellsouth.net (Eris Reddoch) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2007 21:58:51 -0500 Subject: [TML] Trade Tables In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4703056B.2060307@bellsouth.net> david.d.jaques-watson at centrelink.gov.au wrote: > Ahem. And Now For Something Completely Different... > > This is really just a heads-up to let you know I have finally begin > webifying my Trade Tables, something long-threatened but never realised. > > If you are interested, go to my website, then: > ==> Tavonni Repair Bays > ==> House Rules > ==> Trade Tables > http://www.pcug.org.au/~davidjw David, Very nice start! It looks like you've got the In tables done. I'm looking forward to seeing the rest. Eris From quakers_united at yahoo.com.au Wed Oct 3 00:43:05 2007 From: quakers_united at yahoo.com.au (James Ramsay) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2007 16:43:05 +1000 Subject: [TML] Molding Ships In-Re