From shadow at shadowgard.com  Sat Sep  1 00:19:13 2007
From: shadow at shadowgard.com (shadow at shadowgard.com)
Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 23:19:13 -0700
Subject: [TML] Guns in Space!
In-Reply-To: <PBELIEMAEKFJADHMKFLLOEGFFPAA.josephnjody@sbcglobal.net>
References: <46D849EC.16743.1FC4F8E4@shadow.shadowgard.com>,
	<PBELIEMAEKFJADHMKFLLOEGFFPAA.josephnjody@sbcglobal.net>
Message-ID: <46D8A1F1.5200.211DF85A@shadow.shadowgard.com>

On 31 Aug 2007 at 21:42, Joseph Paul wrote:

>> Actually, a hit from a 23 mm "shell" moving at 3 km/sec relative
>> to you is equivalent to having an equal mass of TNT set of at the
>> impact point (actually worse as it'll act more like a shaped
>> charge). At 6 km/sec relative velocity it'll act like 4 times the
>> mass of TNT, and so on.
> 
> If I have figured this right that is about 6 ounces. 24 for the 6 km/sec. At
> 12 km/sec would it be 5 lb 6 oz?

goes up as the square of the velocity, so... 

12 km/sec is 4 times the "reference" velocity of 3 km/sec, so 16 
times the energy. Or 6 lbs (16 oz to the lb)

6 oz is a bit over 170 grams. Call it 150. So:

3 km/sec = 150 gm
6 km/sec = 600 gm
9 km/sec = 1.35 kg
12 km/sec = 2.4 kg
15 km/sec = 3.75 kg
18 km sec = 5.4 kg
21 km/sec = 7.35 kg
and so on.

At 300 km/sec (which a traveller ship can reach in 8.3 hours at 1 g) 
it's 1.5 *tonnes* of TNT.

Can you say "ouch"?

--
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow)
shadow at shadowgard dot com



From andrew.long at yahoo.com  Sat Sep  1 01:10:57 2007
From: andrew.long at yahoo.com (Andrew Long)
Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2007 08:10:57 +0100
Subject: [TML] Guns in Space!
In-Reply-To: <20070901020254.GK12552@soprano.little-possums.net>
References: <1832b5750708310816m14a1bbf5lc6faecaca7ebd548@mail.gmail.com>
	<46D849EC.16743.1FC4F8E4@shadow.shadowgard.com>
	<20070901020254.GK12552@soprano.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <2881B690-33B5-49C1-8BE6-DCDE0FFB859E@yahoo.com>


On 1 Sep 2007, at 03:02, Timothy Little wrote:

> <Snip/>
>
> Firing nearly toward or away from the planet would be almost as bad,
> since that wouldn't change the orbital period either.  There would be
> a second intersection point, but with different eccentricities the
> second one would be a near miss.  You'd be hit one full orbit later.
>
> Note: if you're not hit after one orbit, the shell's orbital period
> doesn't match and you're likely safe for quite a while longer.
>
There was a short story in Analog about this, lo those many years ago  
(I'll have to see if I can find it...) Female astronomer is 'in  
command' of a manned orbital mission with two 'space cadet' type NASA  
pilots making sure that she doesn't actually get to DO anything. At  
some point in the mission, the pilots jettison their propulsion unit  
in what they call the 'garbage burn' - just point it at Earth and  
light the touch paper.

Unfortunately they're in too high an orbit for the (messy, nuclear)  
thruster to be caught by the atmosphere, and it's up to the  
astronomer to save the day... She realises that the orbits can be  
treated as cycles and epicycles, and just puts them at the other edge  
of the thruster's epicycle.

Coming back to it now, it seems less likely that even NASA space  
cadets would be dumping highly radioactive junk into the upper  
atmosphere, and their attitude towards their 'mission commander'  
would get them grounded, if not court-martialed, today.

Regards, Andy

--  
Andrew Long
andrew dot long at yahoo dot com




From tim at little-possums.net  Sat Sep  1 01:55:43 2007
From: tim at little-possums.net (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2007 17:55:43 +1000
Subject: [TML] Guns in Space!
In-Reply-To: <2881B690-33B5-49C1-8BE6-DCDE0FFB859E@yahoo.com>
References: <1832b5750708310816m14a1bbf5lc6faecaca7ebd548@mail.gmail.com>
	<46D849EC.16743.1FC4F8E4@shadow.shadowgard.com>
	<20070901020254.GK12552@soprano.little-possums.net>
	<2881B690-33B5-49C1-8BE6-DCDE0FFB859E@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20070901075543.GN12552@soprano.little-possums.net>

Andrew Long wrote:
> At some point in the mission, the pilots jettison their propulsion
> unit in what they call the 'garbage burn' - just point it at Earth
> and light the touch paper.

Hehe.  A far better "garbage burn" would be to point it 'behind' them.
That would double the reduction of perigee.  It would also reduce the
orbital period so that if it missed, they'd have vastly longer to deal
with it.

Of course, then there wouldn't be a story from it.


- Tim

From shadow at shadowgard.com  Sat Sep  1 03:44:09 2007
From: shadow at shadowgard.com (shadow at shadowgard.com)
Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2007 02:44:09 -0700
Subject: [TML] Guns in Space!
In-Reply-To: <20070901075543.GN12552@soprano.little-possums.net>
References: <1832b5750708310816m14a1bbf5lc6faecaca7ebd548@mail.gmail.com>,
	<2881B690-33B5-49C1-8BE6-DCDE0FFB859E@yahoo.com>,
	<20070901075543.GN12552@soprano.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <46D8D1F9.29170.21DA456E@shadow.shadowgard.com>

On 1 Sep 2007 at 17:55, Timothy Little wrote:

> Andrew Long wrote:
> > At some point in the mission, the pilots jettison their propulsion
> > unit in what they call the 'garbage burn' - just point it at Earth
> > and light the touch paper.
> 
> Hehe.  A far better "garbage burn" would be to point it 'behind' them.
> That would double the reduction of perigee.  It would also reduce the
> orbital period so that if it missed, they'd have vastly longer to deal
> with it.

The female commander points this out.

She also notes that they had picked up the bad habit during training 
in a low orbit station where things dumped that way *would* deorbit 
quickly from atmospheric drag. And theorizes that they had trainees 
"dump the garbage" that way *there*, because it's the one burn that 
they didn't have to worry about the trainees pointing it in the wrong 
direction (get the "backwards" burn flipped and you'll have a nasty 
problem half an orbit later).

> Of course, then there wouldn't be a story from it.

Oh, the author did a good job of justifying everything. 
--
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow)
shadow at shadowgard dot com



From andrew.long at yahoo.com  Sat Sep  1 05:06:11 2007
From: andrew.long at yahoo.com (Andrew Long)
Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2007 12:06:11 +0100
Subject: [TML] Guns in Space!
In-Reply-To: <46D8D1F9.29170.21DA456E@shadow.shadowgard.com>
References: <1832b5750708310816m14a1bbf5lc6faecaca7ebd548@mail.gmail.com>,
	<2881B690-33B5-49C1-8BE6-DCDE0FFB859E@yahoo.com>,
	<20070901075543.GN12552@soprano.little-possums.net>
	<46D8D1F9.29170.21DA456E@shadow.shadowgard.com>
Message-ID: <E48A1B3A-625A-444B-85E1-B67C1D5B621A@yahoo.com>


On 1 Sep 2007, at 10:44, shadow at shadowgard.com wrote:

> On 1 Sep 2007 at 17:55, Timothy Little wrote:
>
>> Andrew Long wrote:
>>> At some point in the mission, the pilots jettison their propulsion
>>> unit in what they call the 'garbage burn' - just point it at Earth
>>> and light the touch paper.
>>
>> Hehe.  A far better "garbage burn" would be to point it 'behind'  
>> them.
>> That would double the reduction of perigee.  It would also reduce the
>> orbital period so that if it missed, they'd have vastly longer to  
>> deal
>> with it.
>
> The female commander points this out.
>
> She also notes that they had picked up the bad habit during training
> in a low orbit station where things dumped that way *would* deorbit
> quickly from atmospheric drag. And theorizes that they had trainees
> "dump the garbage" that way *there*, because it's the one burn that
> they didn't have to worry about the trainees pointing it in the wrong
> direction (get the "backwards" burn flipped and you'll have a nasty
> problem half an orbit later).
>
Damn! Shadow always beats me to it. However, here it is:-

Analog November 1973. 'Epicycle' by P.J. Plauger

Regards, (the late) Andy (as in 'not in time')

-- 
Andrew Long
andrew dot long at yahoo dot com




From tim at little-possums.net  Sat Sep  1 06:32:38 2007
From: tim at little-possums.net (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2007 22:32:38 +1000
Subject: [TML] Guns in Space!
In-Reply-To: <46D8D1F9.29170.21DA456E@shadow.shadowgard.com>
References: <20070901075543.GN12552@soprano.little-possums.net>
	<46D8D1F9.29170.21DA456E@shadow.shadowgard.com>
Message-ID: <20070901123238.GO12552@soprano.little-possums.net>

shadow at shadowgard.com wrote:
> (get the "backwards" burn flipped and you'll have a nasty problem
> half an orbit later).

Nah, if you boost it forward, then half an orbit later it reaches
apogee above and behind you.  After a full orbit, it crosses your path
again but you're ahead of it now because a higher orbit is slower.

It can't be a problem before it does N orbits to your N+1 -- and even
then only if its orbital period happens to be within a few parts per
million of (N+1)/N compared with yours.  If it's not, then it will
take even longer.  The *only* short-term bad case is boosting it very
close to perpendicular to the orbital path.


- Tim

From dcorrin at rogers.com  Sat Sep  1 07:12:27 2007
From: dcorrin at rogers.com (Dan Corrin)
Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2007 09:12:27 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [TML] Jump variation
In-Reply-To: <20070901055240.GM12552@soprano.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <983675.53198.qm@web88110.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

Thanks to you and Leonard for your clarifications.

--- Timothy Little <tim at little-possums.net> wrote:

> Dan Corrin wrote:
> > I don't know where the 10% error turns into 5.7Gm
> over a Target
> > space of 2.6Gm target area,
> 
> It comes from the 160 km/s relative speed, multipled
> by 10 hours
> (36000 s) difference in jump time.
> 
> I was illustrating that under the previously stated
> assumption (jump
> exit point is at rest relative to the ship), having
> a significant
> velocity relative to the target is a very bad idea.
> 
I have always assumed that jump space movement is
completely independent of normal space vectors, thus
it doesn't matter if one is travelling at 0 km/s 160
km/s or 16,000 km/s relative to either planet/star the
10% error would be the same in each case. Weather it
is 10% of the 100 pD (breaking out a 90-110 pD), or
10% of the distance to the gravitational centre of the
system, or 10% (hopefully not) of the 1 parsec
travelled, that the normal space speed of the ship is
unimportant (it will be, of course, when one resumes
normal space). 




Dan Corrin - dcorrin at rogers.com
Hosted TML 85-90 Sunbane Admin
Traveller Wiki: http://traveller.wikia.com

From threeeyesmcgurk at hotmail.com  Sat Sep  1 07:55:39 2007
From: threeeyesmcgurk at hotmail.com (alan hume)
Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2007 13:55:39 +0000
Subject: [TML] Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?
In-Reply-To: <E1IRK08-00082k-II@elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <BAY101-F25E2C5EEE2DCBAC010DAB2AECF0@phx.gbl>


>At 07:19 PM 8/29/2007, Mark Urbin raced into the room, and announced
>the following:
>
> >GURPS: Ground Forces still only has two reviews on Amazon?
>
>I assume everyone else is still building shrines to my sheer genius.
>
>BTW, how's the Ziggurat coming
>
>Douglas Berry penguin_boy at mindspring.com
>http://gridlore.livejournal.com/
>
>Embrace Fascism.  The uniforms look cool.
>Author of GURPS Traveller: Ground Forces


Hey Douglas,
                 Well me and my players thought it was a great book,
I was kinda hoping that you would be another of the people that
Mongoose would be coming to in order to use their work, after Mercenary,
Ground Forces is kind of the definitive book on the Traveller forces
(to my eyes anyhow)and I dont see how Mongoose could do any better than just 
to
use your work. Oh, meant to say, my friend Jeff (who has just gone
back to the States) is ex US Navy and he loooooved the quote
"When the Marines arrive the party is OVER!"  much chuckles:.)

Best wishes

Alan Hume

_________________________________________________________________
Can you see your house from the sky? Try Live Search Maps 
http://maps.live.com


From threeeyesmcgurk at hotmail.com  Sat Sep  1 08:03:47 2007
From: threeeyesmcgurk at hotmail.com (alan hume)
Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2007 14:03:47 +0000
Subject: [TML] Happy Birthday, Marc W. Miller
In-Reply-To: <BAY101-F24B74EEB0AFB99502ED4D7AECE0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <BAY101-F20E32DA2BC04E8476AC2C0AECF0@phx.gbl>


>Thanks Marc and Happy Birthday,
>                                              looking forward to T5
>and Mongoose Traveller:.)
>
>Alan Hume
>

Ooops, I meant to say Mr Miller there, apologies to all

_________________________________________________________________
The next generation of Hotmail is here!  http://www.newhotmail.co.uk


From lesbates_traveller at yahoo.com  Sat Sep  1 09:11:56 2007
From: lesbates_traveller at yahoo.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2007 08:11:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [TML] Motivation (don't tell the pointy haired guy)
In-Reply-To: <BAY101-F20E32DA2BC04E8476AC2C0AECF0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <2932.59364.qm@web33514.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Did some motivational posters.

http://mopu.blogspot.com/2007/09/more-motivation.html


       
____________________________________________________________________________________
Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online.
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting 

From webmaster at travellercentral.com  Sat Sep  1 10:47:40 2007
From: webmaster at travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2007 10:47:40 -0600
Subject: [TML] Guns in Space!
In-Reply-To: <FBC81971-73CA-47CD-B46C-A55A4270A1D8@yahoo.com>
References: <67c7124d0708301420l484555e4w2f9658c8f618ea94@mail.gmail.com>
	<46D74A4C.2040100@ihug.co.nz>
	<1832b5750708310816m14a1bbf5lc6faecaca7ebd548@mail.gmail.com>
	<FBC81971-73CA-47CD-B46C-A55A4270A1D8@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <D6060A57-2CF7-4D04-846D-E48386C287FB@travellercentral.com>

>>
>> However, it occurs to me that the use of such a weapon could
>> potentially cause a big increase in the amount of fast-moving debris
>> in orbits intersecting that of the vessel with the cannon - you
>> wouldn't want to be hit by your own shells or resulting debris from
>> any hits one or more orbits of the shells/debris later.
>>
> It would pretty much have to be a very SHORT ranged weapon, otherwise
> orbital mechanics would mess up your aiming point. You couldn't
> really AIM just by pointing, you'd need a really, really GOOD
> predictor gunsight...
>
> <hint>Wonder if anyone's interested in working out the math?</hint>
>


Actually, the mechanics are relatively simple, compared to the  
computing gun sites used on modern aircraft, which have to take into  
account aerodynamics, temperature, humidity and a variety of other  
factors you don;t have to worry about in space.

From webmaster at travellercentral.com  Sat Sep  1 10:51:31 2007
From: webmaster at travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2007 10:51:31 -0600
Subject: [TML] Guns in Space!
In-Reply-To: <005201c7ebff$94fd8920$cb80a8c0@twilight>
References: <67c7124d0708301420l484555e4w2f9658c8f618ea94@mail.gmail.com><46D74A4C.2040100@ihug.co.nz><1832b5750708310816m14a1bbf5lc6faecaca7ebd548@mail.gmail.com>
	<FBC81971-73CA-47CD-B46C-A55A4270A1D8@yahoo.com>
	<005201c7ebff$94fd8920$cb80a8c0@twilight>
Message-ID: <E9F5DFFD-5F76-4FBB-BCDD-E7D00362593C@travellercentral.com>

>
> I've looked at the math a bit, and yes, it's a really short ranged  
> weapon -
> you're probably looking at a few kilometers, hardly any more than  
> the weapons
> range in atmosphere.
>
> The problem isn't just the accuracy of the gun, its the fact that  
> your target
> starts to look *really* small after a thousand meters, and you just  
> can't aim at
> something that small.
>


You use a telescope.  You don;t have to contend with any atmospherics  
like mirage.

The big issue at long range is that a gun with 1/4 MOA precision is  
about the nest you can hop for.  That means that at 10,000 yards,  
your projectile has a good chance of landing somewhere within a 104.2  
inch circle.

Precision will be the problem, not targeting.

From lesbates_traveller at yahoo.com  Sat Sep  1 14:42:39 2007
From: lesbates_traveller at yahoo.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2007 13:42:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [TML] Emergency!
Message-ID: <872581.25854.qm@web33507.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

http://lesbates.blogspot.com/2007/09/emergency.html


       
____________________________________________________________________________________
Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online.
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting 

From editor at freelancetraveller.com  Sat Sep  1 17:36:59 2007
From: editor at freelancetraveller.com (Freelance Traveller)
Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2007 19:36:59 -0400
Subject: [TML] Ping - Req. for off-list contacts
Message-ID: <qltjd35m8k0u4893rutai0rjgjvds1qad8@4ax.com>

I'd like one of the listmoms to please contact me at newsadmin @
freelancetraveller.com in re possibility of mirroring the list to the
Freelance Traveller forums.

I'd like Rob Eaglestone and The Sayat Menace to drop me a note at editor
@ freelancetraveller.com in re some Vilani terminology/vocabulary.


?Traveller is a registered trademark of
Far Future Enterprises, 1977-2006. Use of
the trademark in this notice and in the
referenced materials is not intended to
infringe or devalue the trademark.

-- 
Jeff Zeitlin, Editor
Freelance Traveller
    The Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller? Resource
editor at freelancetraveller.com
http://www.freelancetraveller.com
http://come.to/freelancetraveller
http://freelancetraveller.downport.com/
editor-at-freelancetraveller-dot-com

Freelance Traveller extends its thanks to the following
enterprises for hosting services:

CyberNET Web Hosting (http://www.cyberwebhosting.net)
The Traveller Downport (http://www.downport.com)

From penguin_boy at mindspring.com  Sat Sep  1 18:03:18 2007
From: penguin_boy at mindspring.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2007 17:03:18 -0700
Subject: [TML] Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?
In-Reply-To: <BAY101-F25E2C5EEE2DCBAC010DAB2AECF0@phx.gbl>
References: <E1IRK08-00082k-II@elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<BAY101-F25E2C5EEE2DCBAC010DAB2AECF0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <E1IRcxc-0000I4-QI@elasmtp-junco.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

At 06:55 AM 9/1/2007, alan hume raced into the room, and announced 
the following:

> >At 07:19 PM 8/29/2007, Mark Urbin raced into the room, and announced
> >the following:
> >
> > >GURPS: Ground Forces still only has two reviews on Amazon?
> >
> >I assume everyone else is still building shrines to my sheer genius.
> >
> >BTW, how's the Ziggurat coming
>
>Hey Douglas,
>                  Well me and my players thought it was a great book,
>I was kinda hoping that you would be another of the people that
>Mongoose would be coming to in order to use their work, after Mercenary,
>Ground Forces is kind of the definitive book on the Traveller forces
>(to my eyes anyhow)and I dont see how Mongoose could do any better than just
>to
>use your work. Oh, meant to say, my friend Jeff (who has just gone
>back to the States) is ex US Navy and he loooooved the quote
>"When the Marines arrive the party is OVER!"  much chuckles:.)

At this point, I've burned out on Traveller (or at least writing for 
it) big time. I'm working on my own near-future setting (The 
Concordat) and doing some military design work for a non-Traveller 
project someone else is writing.

At this point, due to my job as a truck driver, I have very little 
time to do research and write. So I'm leery of accepting jobs with 
deadlines and the like.

--

Douglas Berry penguin_boy at mindspring.com
http://gridlore.livejournal.com/

TML Great Old One, The Keeper of Penguins
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon





From rboleyn at ihug.co.nz  Sat Sep  1 18:49:30 2007
From: rboleyn at ihug.co.nz (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2007 12:49:30 +1200
Subject: [TML] Guns in Space!
In-Reply-To: <E9F5DFFD-5F76-4FBB-BCDD-E7D00362593C@travellercentral.com>
References: <67c7124d0708301420l484555e4w2f9658c8f618ea94@mail.gmail.com><46D74A4C.2040100@ihug.co.nz><1832b5750708310816m14a1bbf5lc6faecaca7ebd548@mail.gmail.com>	<FBC81971-73CA-47CD-B46C-A55A4270A1D8@yahoo.com>	<005201c7ebff$94fd8920$cb80a8c0@twilight>
	<E9F5DFFD-5F76-4FBB-BCDD-E7D00362593C@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <46DA089A.1000708@ihug.co.nz>

Tod Glenn wrote:

> The big issue at long range is that a gun with 1/4 MOA precision is  
> about the nest you can hop for.  That means that at 10,000 yards,  
> your projectile has a good chance of landing somewhere within a 104.2  
> inch circle.
> 
> Precision will be the problem, not targeting.

And will mean a specially designed weapon, as modern aircraft cannon are 
not intended to have very tight grouping. In fact, to some extent the 
opposite is desirable in air combat.

-- 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn at ihug.co.nz>

From tim at little-possums.net  Sat Sep  1 19:49:16 2007
From: tim at little-possums.net (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2007 11:49:16 +1000
Subject: [TML] Jump variation
In-Reply-To: <983675.53198.qm@web88110.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <20070901055240.GM12552@soprano.little-possums.net>
	<983675.53198.qm@web88110.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20070902014916.GP12552@soprano.little-possums.net>

Dan Corrin wrote:
> I have always assumed that jump space movement is completely
> independent of normal space vectors, thus it doesn't matter if one
> is travelling at 0 km/s 160 km/s or 16,000 km/s relative to either
> planet/star the 10% error would be the same in each case.

The 10% error talked about here is the variability in emergence time:
168 hours +- 16.8 hours.


The problem if you jump to a certain point in a frame of reference
fixed by jumpspace, is that planets move - and rather quickly at that.

In 16 hours a planet moving in orbit around some random star (also
moving) could have changed position by a distance of up to 10 million
kilometres or so.  So if you came out of jump right on 168 hours, the
planet is where you aimed.  If you come out of jump 16 hours early or
late, it's 10 million kilometres away.


One proposed solution was that the exit point is stationary compared
with the ship going into jump - and that's what the previous
discussion has been assuming.  If the ship matches velocity with the
planet at expected jump exit time, then the planet hasn't changed
position by much if the ship comes out of jump early or late.


- Tim

From webmaster at travellercentral.com  Sat Sep  1 20:39:11 2007
From: webmaster at travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2007 20:39:11 -0600
Subject: [TML] Ping - Req. for off-list contacts
In-Reply-To: <qltjd35m8k0u4893rutai0rjgjvds1qad8@4ax.com>
References: <qltjd35m8k0u4893rutai0rjgjvds1qad8@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <58D8E736-D51F-4262-9CE8-27E0F6E80986@travellercentral.com>


On Sep 1, 2007, at 5:36 PM, Freelance Traveller wrote:

> I'd like one of the listmoms to please contact me at newsadmin @
> freelancetraveller.com in re possibility of mirroring the list to the
> Freelance Traveller forums.


Didn't we try this one?

From su_liam at clearwire.net  Sat Sep  1 22:25:00 2007
From: su_liam at clearwire.net (Colin Paddock)
Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2007 21:25:00 -0700
Subject: [TML] Gurps Traveller
In-Reply-To: <20070830.102413.27841.0@webmail16.dca.untd.com>
References: <20070830.102413.27841.0@webmail16.dca.untd.com>
Message-ID: <F344E9B6-B8CC-44E8-81B6-61E1DCAE4667@clearwire.net>

On Aug 30, 2007, at 5:24 PM, domhanai at juno.com wrote:

> on Aug. 30, 2007ce, at 6:19am local, Michael McKeown wrote:
>
>> How about with the end of summer Labor Day holiday coming up in the
>> USA...What kind of K'Kree BBQ are people planning lol
>
> I'm tired of that "K'kree: It's whats for dinner" campaign that's  
> been running all summer, so I'm doing a no-cook-out, and sitting  
> down for a good read. I have a new book that should be a page  
> turner: "Hiver Pick-up Lines."
>
> Cougashika - Volume #1, too!

IMTU K'Kree are biochemically incompatible with humans. Not  
necessarily poisonous, but they taste like paraffin, and induce  
diarrhea, at least according to some Vargr who've had a nip.

IMTU Humans, Vargr and Droyne are biochemically compatible. May  
explain the Gaffer's interest in Earth. The K'Kree terror of alien  
G'Naak comes out even more ridiculous and irrational.

From jzeitlin at spamcop.net  Sat Sep  1 22:52:03 2007
From: jzeitlin at spamcop.net (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2007 00:52:03 -0400
Subject: [TML] Ping - Req. for off-list contacts
In-Reply-To: <58D8E736-D51F-4262-9CE8-27E0F6E80986@travellercentral.com>
References: <qltjd35m8k0u4893rutai0rjgjvds1qad8@4ax.com>
	<58D8E736-D51F-4262-9CE8-27E0F6E80986@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <c3gkd31iuj7o3dgdgutnujf4141j1ikl6m@4ax.com>

On Sat, 1 Sep 2007 20:39:11 -0600, you wrote:

>On Sep 1, 2007, at 5:36 PM, Freelance Traveller wrote:

>> I'd like one of the listmoms to please contact me at newsadmin @
>> freelancetraveller.com in re possibility of mirroring the list to the
>> Freelance Traveller forums.


>Didn't we try this one?

We never got to the point of actually TRYING anything; we'd been
negotiating some administrative issues and mechanisms that were proving
troublesome.  I've upgraded the forums software and actually got some
testbedding to WORK, and I think I may have found a solution to the
security issues.  Or at least a partial solution.  So, I'm hoping we can
resurrect this idea, and maybe even make it work this time.

From quakers_united at yahoo.com.au  Sun Sep  2 01:27:30 2007
From: quakers_united at yahoo.com.au (James Ramsay)
Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2007 17:27:30 +1000
Subject: [TML] Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?
In-Reply-To: <E1IRK08-00082k-II@elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <46d629ba.0c87460a.6426.5edb@mx.google.com>
	<E1IRK08-00082k-II@elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <46DA65E2.10000@yahoo.com.au>

Douglas Berry wrote:
> At 07:19 PM 8/29/2007, Mark Urbin raced into the room, and announced 
> the following:
>
>   
>> GURPS: Ground Forces still only has two reviews on Amazon?
>>     
>
> I assume everyone else is still building shrines to my sheer genius.
>
> BTW, how's the Ziggurat coming?
>   

So that's why it is hard to find a copy of Ground Forces. My structural 
Engineer house mate would not approve of paper as a load bearing material.

-- 
the_raptor
"As for sniping... Dude, I was a freaking sniper!
 It's what I do!" - Doug Berry


From garry.e.ward at worldnet.att.net  Sun Sep  2 04:13:08 2007
From: garry.e.ward at worldnet.att.net (Garry Ward)
Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2007 06:13:08 -0400
Subject: [TML] Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?
References: <46d629ba.0c87460a.6426.5edb@mx.google.com><E1IRK08-00082k-II@elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<46DA65E2.10000@yahoo.com.au>
Message-ID: <001101c7ed49$dfd03bf0$e0364b0c@YOURFEDDA97C02>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "James Ramsay" <quakers_united at yahoo.com.au>
To: "The Traveller Mailing List" <tml at travellercentral.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 02, 2007 3:27 AM
Subject: Re: [TML] Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?


> Douglas Berry wrote:
>> At 07:19 PM 8/29/2007, Mark Urbin raced into the room, and announced
>> the following:
>>
>>
>>> GURPS: Ground Forces still only has two reviews on Amazon?
>>>
>>
>> I assume everyone else is still building shrines to my sheer genius.
>>
>> BTW, how's the Ziggurat coming?
>>
>
> So that's why it is hard to find a copy of Ground Forces. My structural
> Engineer house mate would not approve of paper as a load bearing material.
>
Yeah; I've checked with my FLGS several times and the last time was told 
that Ground Forces was out of print and that I should check at used book 
stores.

Garry
> -- 
> the_raptor
> "As for sniping... Dude, I was a freaking sniper!
> It's what I do!" - Doug Berry
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML at travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 



From mcrobertson at cix.compulink.co.uk  Sun Sep  2 04:22:00 2007
From: mcrobertson at cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)
Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2007 11:22 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [TML] Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?
Message-ID: <memo.495599@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <46DA65E2.10000 at yahoo.com.au>
> >> GURPS: Ground Forces still only has two reviews on Amazon?

Having just acquired a copy, it will get reviewed on RPG Resource one of 
these odd days....

Hugs & kisses,

Mexal
http://www.rpg-resource.org.uk/


From domhanai at juno.com  Sun Sep  2 04:44:32 2007
From: domhanai at juno.com (domhanai at juno.com)
Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2007 10:44:32 GMT
Subject: [TML] Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?
Message-ID: <20070902.034432.28822.0@webmail01.dca.untd.com>

Gary Ward wrote:
>... I've checked with my FLGS several times and the last time was told 
>that Ground Forces was out of print and that I should check at used book 
>stores.
 
I would think, in this day and age, that a book as in demand as Ground Forces would be in electronic media, and therefore not quite "out of print." If aversion to making e-payments for e-publications from e-stores is the concern, I have that phobia myself (in my case the aversion is so far groundless). Any e-merchants out there that can verify possessing e-copies of Ground Forces?
 
Cougashika - fun trumps tech



_____________________________________________________________
Make your own Hollywood blockbuster with great video editing software. Click now!
http://3rdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/Ioyw6iieefBAmlmpLu5HLyN3Qls1Gmi31Yb24O81WV1mYqqClOAkdu/

From traveller at dhimaging.com.au  Sun Sep  2 04:56:52 2007
From: traveller at dhimaging.com.au (traveller at dhimaging.com.au)
Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2007 20:56:52 +1000
Subject: [TML] Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?
In-Reply-To: <001101c7ed49$dfd03bf0$e0364b0c@YOURFEDDA97C02>
References: <46d629ba.0c87460a.6426.5edb@mx.google.com><E1IRK08-00082k-II@elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net>	<46DA65E2.10000@yahoo.com.au>
	<001101c7ed49$dfd03bf0$e0364b0c@YOURFEDDA97C02>
Message-ID: <003301c7ed4f$fbf5fcb0$f3e1f610$@com.au>

I got my copy as soon as it was released!  :)

Go Doug!!

-Joel

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-bounces at travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-bounces at travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Garry Ward
Sent: Sunday, September 02, 2007 8:13 PM
To: The Traveller Mailing List
Subject: Re: [TML] Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "James Ramsay" <quakers_united at yahoo.com.au>
To: "The Traveller Mailing List" <tml at travellercentral.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 02, 2007 3:27 AM
Subject: Re: [TML] Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?


> Douglas Berry wrote:
>> At 07:19 PM 8/29/2007, Mark Urbin raced into the room, and announced
>> the following:
>>
>>
>>> GURPS: Ground Forces still only has two reviews on Amazon?
>>>
>>
>> I assume everyone else is still building shrines to my sheer genius.
>>
>> BTW, how's the Ziggurat coming?
>>
>
> So that's why it is hard to find a copy of Ground Forces. My structural
> Engineer house mate would not approve of paper as a load bearing material.
>
Yeah; I've checked with my FLGS several times and the last time was told 
that Ground Forces was out of print and that I should check at used book 
stores.

Garry
> -- 
> the_raptor
> "As for sniping... Dude, I was a freaking sniper!
> It's what I do!" - Doug Berry
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML at travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 


_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML at travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From penguin_boy at mindspring.com  Sun Sep  2 11:54:56 2007
From: penguin_boy at mindspring.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2007 10:54:56 -0700
Subject: [TML] Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?
In-Reply-To: <001101c7ed49$dfd03bf0$e0364b0c@YOURFEDDA97C02>
References: <46d629ba.0c87460a.6426.5edb@mx.google.com>
	<E1IRK08-00082k-II@elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<46DA65E2.10000@yahoo.com.au>
	<001101c7ed49$dfd03bf0$e0364b0c@YOURFEDDA97C02>
Message-ID: <E1IRu9S-000260-Fx@elasmtp-galgo.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

At 03:13 AM 9/2/2007, Garry Ward raced into the room, and announced 
the following:


>Yeah; I've checked with my FLGS several times and the last time was told
>that Ground Forces was out of print and that I should check at used book
>stores.

Ahem.

http://www.warehouse23.com/item.html?id=SJG6614

And it's only about ten bucks these days.


--

Douglas Berry penguin_boy at mindspring.com
http://gridlore.livejournal.com/

Embrace Fascism.  The uniforms look cool.
Author of GURPS Traveller: Ground Forces





From eclipse at urbin.net  Sun Sep  2 14:16:44 2007
From: eclipse at urbin.net (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2007 16:16:44 -0400
Subject: [TML] Cool looking uniforms
In-Reply-To: <E1IRu9S-000260-Fx@elasmtp-galgo.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <46d629ba.0c87460a.6426.5edb@mx.google.com>
	<E1IRK08-00082k-II@elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<46DA65E2.10000@yahoo.com.au>
	<001101c7ed49$dfd03bf0$e0364b0c@YOURFEDDA97C02>
	<E1IRu9S-000260-Fx@elasmtp-galgo.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <46db1aa0.4719360a.5e17.ffff875f@mx.google.com>

At 01:54 PM 9/2/2007, Douglas Berry wrote:
 >Douglas Berry penguin_boy at mindspring.com
 >http://gridlore.livejournal.com/
 >Embrace Fascism.  The uniforms look cool.
 >Author of GURPS Traveller: Ground Forces

Pictures from DragonCon are cropping up already.
Including some cool looking uniforms from a so-so movie.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/wfdt/1291137442/in/set-72157601753134634/



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Vegetarian: An old Indian word that means "lousy hunter."
                http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------


From domhanai at juno.com  Sun Sep  2 16:58:33 2007
From: domhanai at juno.com (domhanai at juno.com)
Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2007 22:58:33 GMT
Subject: [TML] Cool looking uniforms
Message-ID: <20070902.155833.17756.0@webmail01.dca.untd.com>

Mark Urbin wrote:
>Pictures from DragonCon are cropping up already.
>Including some cool looking uniforms from a so-so movie.
>
>http://www.flickr.com/photos/wfdt/1291137442/in/set-72157601753134634/


Hey, Browncoats; we need to jump these purple bellies and find the name of their tailor.
 
Cougashika - shiny


_____________________________________________________________
Click to learn how you can earn extra cash in day trading.
http://3rdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/Ioyw6iigD06UrjjABakjmaDAo4uVWlSipvEfao5zF3uDXhrF9Y30DS/

From lesbates_traveller at yahoo.com  Sun Sep  2 18:06:56 2007
From: lesbates_traveller at yahoo.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2007 17:06:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [TML] Something for the Twilight 2000 fans...
Message-ID: <695130.50684.qm@web33501.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Gone With The Blastwave

http://www.blastwavecomic.com/index.php?p=comic&nro=1


       
____________________________________________________________________________________
Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.
http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamekey=monopolyherenow  

From darvedd at gmail.com  Sun Sep  2 19:00:25 2007
From: darvedd at gmail.com (Michael Jenkins)
Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 09:00:25 +0800
Subject: [TML] Something for the Twilight 2000 fans...
In-Reply-To: <695130.50684.qm@web33501.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <695130.50684.qm@web33501.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1832b5750709021800j40646eecp10da8575033f917f@mail.gmail.com>

On 03/09/07, Leslie Bates <lesbates_traveller at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Gone With The Blastwave
>
> http://www.blastwavecomic.com/index.php?p=comic&nro=1

Good one!

-- 
Regards,
Michael Jenkins
--
No person should call themselves free,
While they are enslaved by fear, or greed, or hate.
--

From eclipse at urbin.net  Sun Sep  2 19:24:40 2007
From: eclipse at urbin.net (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2007 21:24:40 -0400
Subject: [TML] Something for the Twilight 2000 fans...
In-Reply-To: <695130.50684.qm@web33501.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <695130.50684.qm@web33501.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <46db62cc.2887460a.5c4e.ffff803b@mx.google.com>

At 08:06 PM 9/2/2007, Leslie Bates wrote:
>http://www.blastwavecomic.com/index.php?p=comic&nro=1

Oh...that is just too damn funny.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
You are fighting for survival in your own sweet and gentle way.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- 


From wmrcameron at gmail.com  Mon Sep  3 17:21:31 2007
From: wmrcameron at gmail.com (Bill Cameron)
Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 19:21:31 -0400
Subject: [TML] Guns in Space!
In-Reply-To: <20070831.152214.28128.0@webmail05.dca.untd.com>
References: <20070831.152214.28128.0@webmail05.dca.untd.com>
Message-ID: <f7ac2f00709031621q71074b44mc605cb16deb31d50@mail.gmail.com>

domhanai at juno.com wrote:  "Speaking of Clarke, in his short, "Superiority,"
a starship fleet had a superior J-drive, but every time it was used
subsystems ceased to  function, or became misaligned. ObTrav, anyone?"


An excellent story that should be on everyone's reading list.  If memory
serves, it begins as a memoir/memo/request sent by a POW to his victorious
captors.  In it he explains how his polity, which had enjoyed technical
superioty over their foes, managed to loose the war.  In their desire to
maintain their technical lead, they expend too many resources on technology
that isn't quite battle ready and are eventually swamped by their
fractionally less advanced, but eventually materially more numerous, foes.
When you remember that Clarke was a RAF 'boffin' in WW2, the analogy is
clear.

IIRC, the not-ready-for-primetime-technology includes:

 - an antimatter or 'total destruction' missile whose trigger is
unfortunately tripped by simple navigation signals from the warship carrying
it.
 - A C3I 'battle controller' that required hundreds of specially trained
technicians.  Naturally, the techs were housed aboard a transport ship that
the enemy immediately targeted and destroyed.
 - the aforementioned "j drive".  ISTR it being something like a cloaking
device.  The ship employing it was 'withdrawn' from normal space to a
distance beyond enemy weapon or sensor range.  Imagine a rubber sheet whose
center you pull upward some great distance; the ship is at the center of the
sheet while the enemy is along the edges.  Anyway, this constant
'stretching' eventually stretches out everything aboard the vessels
employing it; transistors, calibrated parts, even the nuts and bolts.  The
changes are miniscule but crippling.

The zinger of the story appears at the end and has to do with why the
military leader is offering this advice to his former enemies.


Have fun,
Bill

From raikenclw at gmail.com  Mon Sep  3 22:46:12 2007
From: raikenclw at gmail.com (Richard Aiken)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 00:46:12 -0400
Subject: [TML] Cool looking uniforms
In-Reply-To: <20070902.155833.17756.0@webmail01.dca.untd.com>
References: <20070902.155833.17756.0@webmail01.dca.untd.com>
Message-ID: <5aca9be50709032146o49aa8022lc10d641d35725c68@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/2/07, domhanai at juno.com <domhanai at juno.com> wrote:
>
> Mark Urbin wrote:
> >Pictures from DragonCon are cropping up already.
> >Including some cool looking uniforms from a so-so movie.
> >
> >http://www.flickr.com/photos/wfdt/1291137442/in/set-72157601753134634/
>
>
> Hey, Browncoats; we need to jump these purple bellies and find the name of
> their tailor.
>
> Cougashika - shiny


Looked more like "greybellies" to me.

Oh, BTW, in my Serene Travelling thingee, I'm currently refering
to Imperials as "blackarms" - for the black starburst Imperial shoulder
patch.  Comments?  Other suggestions for slang names used by MTU
Browncoats?

-- 
Richard Aiken

"Never insult anyone by accident."  Robert A. Heinlein

From raikenclw at gmail.com  Mon Sep  3 22:49:23 2007
From: raikenclw at gmail.com (Richard Aiken)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 00:49:23 -0400
Subject: [TML] Something for the Twilight 2000 fans...
In-Reply-To: <46db62cc.2887460a.5c4e.ffff803b@mx.google.com>
References: <695130.50684.qm@web33501.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<46db62cc.2887460a.5c4e.ffff803b@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <5aca9be50709032149l60da0939r48d6590096b3b30f@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/2/07, Mark Urbin <eclipse at urbin.net> wrote:
>
> At 08:06 PM 9/2/2007, Leslie Bates wrote:
> >http://www.blastwavecomic.com/index.php?p=comic&nro=1
>
> Oh...that is just too damn funny.


I'd have probably said (in reply to the initial question): "Because those
other idiots won't stop shooting at us."

-- 
Richard Aiken

"Never insult anyone by accident."  Robert A. Heinlein

From garry.e.ward at worldnet.att.net  Tue Sep  4 03:11:32 2007
From: garry.e.ward at worldnet.att.net (Garry Ward)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 05:11:32 -0400
Subject: [TML] Cool looking uniforms
References: <20070902.155833.17756.0@webmail01.dca.untd.com>
	<5aca9be50709032146o49aa8022lc10d641d35725c68@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000301c7eed3$99e9b950$f02c4b0c@YOURFEDDA97C02>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Richard Aiken" <raikenclw at gmail.com>
To: "The Traveller Mailing List" <tml at travellercentral.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 12:46 AM
Subject: Re: [TML] Cool looking uniforms


> On 9/2/07, domhanai at juno.com <domhanai at juno.com> wrote:
>>
>> Mark Urbin wrote:
>> >Pictures from DragonCon are cropping up already.
>> >Including some cool looking uniforms from a so-so movie.
>> >
>> >http://www.flickr.com/photos/wfdt/1291137442/in/set-72157601753134634/
>>
>>
>> Hey, Browncoats; we need to jump these purple bellies and find the name 
>> of
>> their tailor.
>>
>> Cougashika - shiny
>
>
> Looked more like "greybellies" to me.
>
> Oh, BTW, in my Serene Travelling thingee, I'm currently refering
> to Imperials as "blackarms" - for the black starburst Imperial shoulder
> patch.  Comments?  Other suggestions for slang names used by MTU
> Browncoats?
Just the arm is black? If it is the starburst that's black, how about:

Blackstars.
Blacksuns (as in blacksonab...hs).

Garry
>
> -- 
> Richard Aiken
>
> "Never insult anyone by accident."  Robert A. Heinlein
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML at travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 



From rancke at diku.dk  Tue Sep  4 06:35:22 2007
From: rancke at diku.dk (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 14:35:22 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [TML] Environmental domes
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0709041422020.23423@ask.diku.dk>

An old problem of mine has cropped up again. The TU is littered with 
crummy worlds that nevertheless have sizable populations. Some of them I 
put into sealed caves, some of them I put into arcologies, but some of 
them I like to put under environmental domes, preferrably domes that are 
large enough to have agricultural fields and sculptured landscapes -- maybe
even national parks -- beneath them. I'd like them to be a mile high and 
cover an area the size of a... what's the American equivalent of a shire?

My problem is that I have no idea what the maximum plausible size of such 
a dome is at various tech levels. I've thought about finding out the size 
of the domes we can build on Earth today and then increase the diameter by 
some factor (2? 3? 5? 10?) per tech level, but googling 'environmental 
dome' gives me about 2 million hits, the first score of which are camera 
mounts and hothouses...

Anyone know what we can achieve today and have any opinions about what 
should be possible at higher TLs?



Hans

From traveller at watson-wilson.ca  Tue Sep  4 06:55:08 2007
From: traveller at watson-wilson.ca (Neil Watson)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 08:55:08 -0400
Subject: [TML] Environmental domes
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0709041422020.23423@ask.diku.dk>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0709041422020.23423@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <20070904125508.GA30203@watson-wilson.ca>

I think gravity is more of a limiting factor than tech level.

-- 
Neil Watson             | Debian Linux
System Administrator    | Uptime 12 days
http://watson-wilson.ca

From domhanai at juno.com  Tue Sep  4 07:43:32 2007
From: domhanai at juno.com (domhanai at juno.com)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 13:43:32 GMT
Subject: [TML] Cool looking uniforms
Message-ID: <20070904.064332.27180.0@webmail07.dca.untd.com>

On Sep. 3, 2007ce, at 9:54pm local, Mark Urbin wrote:
>Oh, BTW, in my Serene Travelling thingee, I'm currently refering
>to Imperials as "blackarms" - for the black starburst Imperial shoulder
>patch.  Comments?  Other suggestions for slang names used by MTU
>Browncoats?
 
My Marines are 'bluecollars.'
 
Cougashika - fun trumps tech

_____________________________________________________________
Need cash? Click to get a loan.
http://3rdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/Ioyw6iiekGqqZYXkRBtOzHLsZ2Tl07AKgBlz7SJtL9WeZFXVggW9GM/

From domhanai at juno.com  Tue Sep  4 07:52:12 2007
From: domhanai at juno.com (domhanai at juno.com)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 13:52:12 GMT
Subject: [TML] Environmental domes
Message-ID: <20070904.065212.27180.1@webmail07.dca.untd.com>

Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen wrote:
An old problem of mine has cropped up again. The TU is littered with 
crummy worlds that nevertheless have sizable populations. Some of them I 
put into sealed caves, some of them I put into arcologies, but some of 
them I like to put under environmental domes, preferrably domes that are 
large enough to have agricultural fields and sculptured landscapes -- maybe
even national parks -- beneath them. I'd like them to be a mile high and 
cover an area the size of a... what's the American equivalent of a shire?

>My problem is that I have no idea what the maximum plausible size of such 
>a dome is at various tech levels. I've thought about finding out the size 
>of the domes we can build on Earth today and then increase the diameter by 
>some factor (2? 3? 5? 10?) per tech level, but googling 'environmental 
>dome' gives me about 2 million hits, the first score of which are camera 
>mounts and hothouses...

>Anyone know what we can achieve today and have any opinions about what 
>should be possible at higher TLs?
 
Actually Kim Stanley Robinson handled that concept rather well in the first chapters of "Red Mars." I suggest that in lieu of any pure engineering information you get (this is, after all, science fiction).
 
Cougashika - No one is sick on the first day of school.



_____________________________________________________________
Need cash? Click to get a loan.
http://3rdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/Ioyw6iiekGqqZYXkRBtOzHLsZ2Tl07AKgBlz7SJtL9WeZFXVggW9GM/

From josephnjody at sbcglobal.net  Tue Sep  4 08:23:29 2007
From: josephnjody at sbcglobal.net (Joseph Paul)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 10:23:29 -0400
Subject: [TML] Environmental domes
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0709041422020.23423@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <PBELIEMAEKFJADHMKFLLMEBIGAAA.josephnjody@sbcglobal.net>

You might do better with figuring a suspension rig. Imagine a carbon fiber
tower in the center that anchors suspension cables (diamond rope?) that
connect  to other towers. Secured to the cables is your barrier material.
Tough and light weight it drapes gracefully over the cables. It can actually
be composed of several layers that supply filtration of air, radiation, or
liquids. Or not. It can self-repair to a limited degree and there are
contragrav robots for larger repairs. Need more strength? Reinforce it with
high tech fibers like SilkSteel (TM). This would function like rip stop
nylon.

Design this in concentric rings so that you have walls also and then you
have compartmentalization. You don't lose every one to a puncture.
The towers can incorporate airlocks at the top so that you can egress and
get to the space port. Some may have rotational dining facilities as well
for the view =)!

How big is a shire? Counties here (Indiana) seem to be about 400 square
miles or 20 miles on a side.

With this set up you don't need to worry about how large of a free standing
dome can be made. You place tower supports as close as you need to.

Joseph Paul

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-bounces at travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-bounces at travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Hans Henrik
Rancke-Madsen
Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 8:35 AM
To: tml at travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] Environmental domes


An old problem of mine has cropped up again. The TU is littered with
crummy worlds that nevertheless have sizable populations. Some of them I
put into sealed caves, some of them I put into arcologies, but some of
them I like to put under environmental domes, preferrably domes that are
large enough to have agricultural fields and sculptured landscapes -- maybe
even national parks -- beneath them. I'd like them to be a mile high and
cover an area the size of a... what's the American equivalent of a shire?

My problem is that I have no idea what the maximum plausible size of such
a dome is at various tech levels. I've thought about finding out the size
of the domes we can build on Earth today and then increase the diameter by
some factor (2? 3? 5? 10?) per tech level, but googling 'environmental
dome' gives me about 2 million hits, the first score of which are camera
mounts and hothouses...

Anyone know what we can achieve today and have any opinions about what
should be possible at higher TLs?



Hans
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML at travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From shadow at shadowgard.com  Tue Sep  4 09:03:41 2007
From: shadow at shadowgard.com (shadow at shadowgard.com)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 08:03:41 -0700
Subject: [TML] Environmental domes
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0709041422020.23423@ask.diku.dk>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0709041422020.23423@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <46DD115D.24325.32823E26@shadow.shadowgard.com>

On 4 Sep 2007 at 14:35, Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen wrote:

> An old problem of mine has cropped up again. The TU is littered with 
> crummy worlds that nevertheless have sizable populations. Some of them I 
> put into sealed caves, some of them I put into arcologies, but some of 
> them I like to put under environmental domes, preferrably domes that are 
> large enough to have agricultural fields and sculptured landscapes -- maybe
> even national parks -- beneath them. I'd like them to be a mile high and 
> cover an area the size of a... what's the American equivalent of a shire?

County? And even that is iffy as there are some counties in the less 
populous states that are bigger than some of the smaller states!

> My problem is that I have no idea what the maximum plausible size of such 
> a dome is at various tech levels. I've thought about finding out the size 
> of the domes we can build on Earth today and then increase the diameter by 
> some factor (2? 3? 5? 10?) per tech level, but googling 'environmental 
> dome' gives me about 2 million hits, the first score of which are camera 
> mounts and hothouses...
> 
> Anyone know what we can achieve today and have any opinions about what 
> should be possible at higher TLs?

Unless there's an atmosphere at the same pressure (or close) outside, 
large domes get unworkable due to pressure problems. It's not as bad 
as underwater domes, but it's still a problem.

You see, the pressure differential will be different at different 
altitudes. And the mass of the dome gets weird too.

Oddly, there have been discussions of enclosing an entire planet in a 
"shell" which while it requires tech we don't have is actually 
*easier* as far as stresses go, because all of the "dome" is at the 
same altitude.

--
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow)
shadow at shadowgard dot com



From shadow at shadowgard.com  Tue Sep  4 09:35:03 2007
From: shadow at shadowgard.com (shadow at shadowgard.com)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 08:35:03 -0700
Subject: [TML] Environmental domes
In-Reply-To: <PBELIEMAEKFJADHMKFLLMEBIGAAA.josephnjody@sbcglobal.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0709041422020.23423@ask.diku.dk>,
	<PBELIEMAEKFJADHMKFLLMEBIGAAA.josephnjody@sbcglobal.net>
Message-ID: <46DD18B7.3349.329F10A1@shadow.shadowgard.com>

On 4 Sep 2007 at 10:23, Joseph Paul wrote:

> Design this in concentric rings so that you have walls also and then you
> have compartmentalization. You don't lose every one to a puncture.

Have to be one *hell* of a puncture to be much of a problem.

Since most designs *won't* be pressure supported, the flow rate 
depends solely on the pressure differential and the size of the hole. 

For hole size, it's area that matters. But as the dome gets bigger 
the amount of air inside goes up as the cube of the size. 

So even for a hole that is bigger, a bigger dome will have longer to 
fix it. 

Say the hole is the same proportional size. Make the dome twice as 
big and while the area of the hole goes up by a factor of 4, the 
volume of air goes up by a factor of *8*. So it'll take twice as long 
to be a serious loss.

Since the holes are apt to be *smaller* (as fraction of the dome 
size) as the size goes up, then you've got even longer to fix things. 

A hole a foot across into vacuum is a catastrophe for a a 100 ton 
ship. In a dome a hundred meters across, it's bad news. In one 10 km 
across, it's a major nuisance. In one 100 km across it's a serious 
maintenance item.

> How big is a shire? Counties here (Indiana) seem to be about 400 square
> miles or 20 miles on a side.


On the other hand, Harney county here in Oregon is roughly 80 x 120, 
or close to 10,000 square miles. 

Ah. A bit from wikipedia:

At the 2000 U.S. Census, the median land area of the 3,077 U.S. 
counties was 1,611 km? (622 sq. miles), which is only two-thirds of 
the median land area of a ceremonial county of England, and only a 
little more than a quarter of the median land area of a French 
d?partement. However, this figure hides large differences between the 
eastern and western United States. The land area of counties in the 
western United States is much larger than the land area of counties 
in the eastern United States. For example, the median land area of 
counties in Georgia it is 888 km? (343 sq. miles), whereas in Utah it 
is 6,286 km? (2,427 sq. miles)

The largest county equivalent by (total) area is Yukon-Koyukuk Census 
Area, Alaska at 147,843 square miles (382,912 km?), while the largest 
county is North Slope Borough, Alaska at 94,763 mi? (245,435 km?). 
The smallest county-equivlant is the independent city of Falls 
Church, Virginia at 2.0 square miles (5 km?), while smallest county 
is Kalawao County, Hawaii at 13 mi? (34 km?). The smallest self-
governing County is Arlington, Virginia at 26 mi? (72 km?).

At the 2000 U.S. Census, only 16.7% of U.S. counties had more than 
100,000 inhabitants. This reflects the essentially rural nature of 
U.S. counties, whose grid was designed in the 19th century, in a 
country still largely rural and only marginally affected by 
urbanization. Today, the vast majority of people in the United States 
are concentrated in a relatively small number of counties The most 
populous county equivalent is Los Angeles County, California with 
10,226,506 inhabitants as of 2005, and the least populous county is 
Loving County, Texas with 60 inhabitants as of 2005.

The most densely populated county (or county equivalent) is New York 
County, New York (coextensive with the Borough of Manhattan, and 
consisting primarily of Manhattan island) with 66,940 people per 
square mile (ppsm) as of 2000, and the least densely populated county 
is Lake and Peninsula Borough, Alaska with 0.0767 ppsm as of 2000. 
The least densely populated county equivalent is Yukon-Koyukuk Census 
Area, Alaska with 0.0449 ppsm as of 2000.
--
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow)
shadow at shadowgard dot com



From josephnjody at sbcglobal.net  Tue Sep  4 10:14:00 2007
From: josephnjody at sbcglobal.net (Joseph Paul)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 12:14:00 -0400
Subject: [TML] Environmental domes
In-Reply-To: <46DD18B7.3349.329F10A1@shadow.shadowgard.com>
Message-ID: <PBELIEMAEKFJADHMKFLLMEBKGAAA.josephnjody@sbcglobal.net>



-----Original Message-----
From: tml-bounces at travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-bounces at travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of
shadow at shadowgard.com
Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 11:35 AM
To: The Traveller Mailing List
Subject: Re: [TML] Environmental domes


On 4 Sep 2007 at 10:23, Joseph Paul wrote:

> Design this in concentric rings so that you have walls also and then you
> have compartmentalization. You don't lose every one to a puncture.

Have to be one *hell* of a puncture to be much of a problem.

Since most designs *won't* be pressure supported, the flow rate
depends solely on the pressure differential and the size of the hole.

For hole size, it's area that matters. But as the dome gets bigger
the amount of air inside goes up as the cube of the size.

So even for a hole that is bigger, a bigger dome will have longer to
fix it.

Say the hole is the same proportional size. Make the dome twice as
big and while the area of the hole goes up by a factor of 4, the
volume of air goes up by a factor of *8*. So it'll take twice as long
to be a serious loss.

Since the holes are apt to be *smaller* (as fraction of the dome
size) as the size goes up, then you've got even longer to fix things.

A hole a foot across into vacuum is a catastrophe for a a 100 ton
ship. In a dome a hundred meters across, it's bad news. In one 10 km
across, it's a major nuisance. In one 100 km across it's a serious
maintenance item.

<snip county area data>
--
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow)
shadow at shadowgard dot com

Good points Leonard but I wasn't so concerned about keeping things in as I
was with keeping stuff out. Bhopal could be *outside* and you don't want
*any* of that coming in! Does any one have any figures or a breakdown of how
many inhabited planets have tainted/poisonous/vacuum atmospheres in the OTU?
How big a problem is this for the 3I and how has canon handled the 3I's
successful colonisation of such worlds?

Joseph Paul
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML at travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From andrew.long at yahoo.com  Tue Sep  4 10:31:28 2007
From: andrew.long at yahoo.com (Andrew Long)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 17:31:28 +0100
Subject: [TML] Guns in Space!
In-Reply-To: <f7ac2f00709031621q71074b44mc605cb16deb31d50@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20070831.152214.28128.0@webmail05.dca.untd.com>
	<f7ac2f00709031621q71074b44mc605cb16deb31d50@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6DCCDDD9-0181-46EF-89F4-26EC5E2F54A9@yahoo.com>


On 4 Sep 2007, at 00:21, Bill Cameron wrote:

> domhanai at juno.com wrote:  "Speaking of Clarke, in his short,  
> "Superiority,"
> a starship fleet had a superior J-drive, but every time it was used
> subsystems ceased to  function, or became misaligned. ObTrav, anyone?"
>
>
Don't remember that one off hand, but a lot of Arthur Clarke's short  
stuff was like that (if I'm getting the drift correctly...) I  
remember two in particular, one called 'Shah Guido G.", the other  
(whose titel I don't remember) was about a signal from our Galactic  
cousins, explaining why they had been forced to quarantine us, and  
that we could now be cured....

I won't spoil the punchline for anyone who hasn't yet read it.

Regards, Andy

-- 
Andrew Long
andrew dot long at yahoo dot com




From infojunky at ceecom.net  Tue Sep  4 10:58:21 2007
From: infojunky at ceecom.net (Evyn MacDude)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 09:58:21 -0700
Subject: [TML] Environmental domes
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0709041422020.23423@ask.diku.dk>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0709041422020.23423@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <55D8B259-96FE-4244-AFDF-EEDA6EE75408@ceecom.net>


On Sep 4, 2007, at 5:35 AM, Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen wrote:

>  some of
> them I like to put under environmental domes, preferrably domes  
> that are
> large enough to have agricultural fields and sculptured landscapes  
> -- maybe
> even national parks -- beneath them.

The first 2 I can see fairly readily, as the area under the dome is a
managed environment, the latter is a bit of a push.... But that might  
just be me.

> I'd like them to be a mile high

Well, as a ball park figure of a mile highest point the diameter should
be some where in the 2 to 20 mile range for a single dome.

>  cover an area the size of a... what's the American equivalent of a  
> shire?

There isn't one.

> Anyone know what we can achieve today and have any opinions about what
> should be possible at higher TLs?

There isn't a real max, though the Millennium Dome in London is  
listed as
the worlds largest covering 20 some odd acres. With a 365m diameter.
It really depends if it has to be a strict dome or could it be an  
light permiable
structure.

Evyn MacDude
infojunky at ceecom.net

Then somewhere near Salinas, Lord, I let her slip away,
Lookin' for the home I hope she'll find.
And I'd trade all my tomorrows for a single yesterday,
			Me & Bobby Mcgee,
				Kris Kristofferson




From traveller at dhimaging.com.au  Tue Sep  4 12:15:20 2007
From: traveller at dhimaging.com.au (traveller at dhimaging.com.au)
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 04:15:20 +1000
Subject: [TML] Environmental domes
In-Reply-To: <55D8B259-96FE-4244-AFDF-EEDA6EE75408@ceecom.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0709041422020.23423@ask.diku.dk>
	<55D8B259-96FE-4244-AFDF-EEDA6EE75408@ceecom.net>
Message-ID: <006701c7ef1f$908d6a40$b1a83ec0$@com.au>


-----Original Message-----
From: tml-bounces at travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-bounces at travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Evyn MacDude
Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 2:58 AM
To: The Traveller Mailing List
Subject: Re: [TML] Environmental domes


<snip of cool stuff>
>  cover an area the size of a... what's the American equivalent of a  
> shire?

There isn't one.

===================================
[joel]
I think they have shires in Louisiana - and I think they are politically the
same as counties.

Honor Harrington's 'Verse has a planet that is poison to the inhabitants and
she makes a company called "Sky Domes" (I think) with off-world tech but
built locally with local people.  She gets really, really rich.  One of the
books details some of the construction techniques, because someone is
sabotaging the effort...

-Joel


From tom.cusworth at googlemail.com  Tue Sep  4 12:17:57 2007
From: tom.cusworth at googlemail.com (Tom Cusworth)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 19:17:57 +0100
Subject: [TML] Environmental domes
In-Reply-To: <006701c7ef1f$908d6a40$b1a83ec0$@com.au>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0709041422020.23423@ask.diku.dk>
	<55D8B259-96FE-4244-AFDF-EEDA6EE75408@ceecom.net>
	<006701c7ef1f$908d6a40$b1a83ec0$@com.au>
Message-ID: <4b5cc71a0709041117s78b9b076hca778ae94e72db64@mail.gmail.com>

Grayson Sky Domes, IIRC...

-Tom


On 04/09/07, traveller at dhimaging.com.au <traveller at dhimaging.com.au> wrote:
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-bounces at travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-bounces at travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Evyn MacDude
> Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 2:58 AM
> To: The Traveller Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [TML] Environmental domes
>
>
> <snip of cool stuff>
> >  cover an area the size of a... what's the American equivalent of a
> > shire?
>
> There isn't one.
>
> ===================================
> [joel]
> I think they have shires in Louisiana - and I think they are politically
> the
> same as counties.
>
> Honor Harrington's 'Verse has a planet that is poison to the inhabitants
> and
> she makes a company called "Sky Domes" (I think) with off-world tech but
> built locally with local people.  She gets really, really rich.  One of
> the
> books details some of the construction techniques, because someone is
> sabotaging the effort...
>
> -Joel
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML at travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>



-- 
Blessed are the cheapskates, for they shall see god and still have change of
a fiver - Tom Holt, Valhalla.

Want Googlemail? Ask me & I'll invite you!

From joshua.stockwell at gmail.com  Tue Sep  4 12:18:59 2007
From: joshua.stockwell at gmail.com (Joshua Stockwell)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 14:18:59 -0400
Subject: [TML] Environmental domes
In-Reply-To: <006701c7ef1f$908d6a40$b1a83ec0$@com.au>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0709041422020.23423@ask.diku.dk>
	<55D8B259-96FE-4244-AFDF-EEDA6EE75408@ceecom.net>
	<006701c7ef1f$908d6a40$b1a83ec0$@com.au>
Message-ID: <67c7124d0709041118j2431f504k36b235b6346f166a@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/4/07, traveller at dhimaging.com.au <traveller at dhimaging.com.au> wrote:
>
> [joel]
> I think they have shires in Louisiana - and I think they are politically
> the
> same as counties.


Do you mean Parishes?

From traveller at dhimaging.com.au  Tue Sep  4 12:30:32 2007
From: traveller at dhimaging.com.au (traveller at dhimaging.com.au)
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 04:30:32 +1000
Subject: [TML] Environmental domes
In-Reply-To: <67c7124d0709041118j2431f504k36b235b6346f166a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0709041422020.23423@ask.diku.dk>	<55D8B259-96FE-4244-AFDF-EEDA6EE75408@ceecom.net>	<006701c7ef1f$908d6a40$b1a83ec0$@com.au>
	<67c7124d0709041118j2431f504k36b235b6346f166a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <006801c7ef21$b0cc80a0$126581e0$@com.au>



-----Original Message-----
From: tml-bounces at travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-bounces at travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Joshua Stockwell
Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 4:19 AM
To: The Traveller Mailing List
Subject: Re: [TML] Environmental domes

On 9/4/07, traveller at dhimaging.com.au <traveller at dhimaging.com.au> wrote:
>
> [joel]
> I think they have shires in Louisiana - and I think they are politically
> the
> same as counties.


Do you mean Parishes?
_______________________________________________
[joel]
Ah yeah - thanks.  Hey, it's 4:25am here...  hehe

In Australia, we have Shire Offices that represent a collection of small
towns geographically co-located.
I'm in the Golden Plains Shire.  We go to the Counsel's office for things
like rubbish collection, water rates, house rates, etc.
Rates are basically taxes.  I think a Shire and a County are similar in
function.

And thanks to Tom for the correct name of Honor's company.
Grayson was the name of the world that started out as the "poorer cousins",
but ended up out-producing Manticore in ship building.
There has to be Traveller fodder there...

-joel


From tomnaro at yahoo.com  Tue Sep  4 12:55:05 2007
From: tomnaro at yahoo.com (Tom Naro)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 11:55:05 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [TML] Environmental domes
Message-ID: <669298.10897.qm@web53712.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen rancke at diku.dk wrote:

> I like to put under environmental domes, preferrably domes that are 
>large enough to have agricultural fields and sculptured landscapes -- maybe
>even national parks -- beneath them. I'd like them to be a mile high and 
>cover an area the size of a... what's the American equivalent of a shire?

>My problem is that I have no idea what the maximum plausible size of such 
>a dome is at various tech levels. I've thought about finding out the size 
>of the domes we can build on Earth today and then increase the diameter by 
>some factor (2? 3? 5? 10?) per tech level

>Anyone know what we can achieve today and have any opinions about what 
>should be possible at higher TLs?

The best links for the kind of dome you would probably need is 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geodesic_dome and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domed_city
 
I have helped construct a small temporary dome for an outdoor show.  It was a steel frame and a canvas liner. It was about 30 feet in diameter and about 40 feet tall. The struts were about 5 feet long. It took about 4 hours to put up and about an hour to take it down.  All the materials fit into the back of a large pickup truck (the liner sections were the most dificult parts to manage.)
 
You might be able to get the affect you want using multiple domes that intersect.  It might look something like this http://www.geodesics-unlimited.com/planetarium.htm


      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles. Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center.
http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/ 

From tomnaro at yahoo.com  Tue Sep  4 13:03:52 2007
From: tomnaro at yahoo.com (Tom Naro)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 12:03:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [TML] Environmental domes
Message-ID: <237572.40137.qm@web53705.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

Tom Naro tomnaro at yahoo.com Wrote:
>Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen rancke at diku.dk wrote:
>> I like to put under environmental domes, preferrably domes that are 
>>large enough to have agricultural fields and sculptured landscapes -- maybe
>>even national parks -- beneath them. I'd like them to be a mile high and 
>>cover an area the size of a... what's the American equivalent of a shire?

>>My problem is that I have no idea what the maximum plausible size of such 
>>a dome is at various tech levels. I've thought about finding out the size 
>>of the domes we can build on Earth today and then increase the diameter by 
>>some factor (2? 3? 5? 10?) per tech level

>>Anyone know what we can achieve today and have any opinions about what 
>>should be possible at higher TLs?

>The best links for the kind of dome you would probably need is 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geodesic_dome and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domed_city

>I have helped construct a small temporary dome for an outdoor show.  It was a steel frame and a canvas liner. It was about 30 feet in diameter and about 40 feet tall. The struts were about 5 feet long. It took about 4 hours to put up and about an hour to take it down.  All the materials fit into the back of a large pickup truck (the liner sections were the most dificult parts to manage.)

>You might be able to get the affect you want using multiple domes that intersect.  It might look something like this 
http://www.geodesics-unlimited.com/planetarium.htm

Oops! Switch those dimensions: 40 foot diameter, 30 feet tall (roughly, based on my memory)


       
____________________________________________________________________________________
Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more. 
http://mobile.yahoo.com/go?refer=1GNXIC

From dave.shillito at gmail.com  Tue Sep  4 16:52:07 2007
From: dave.shillito at gmail.com (DAve Shillito)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 23:52:07 +0100
Subject: [TML] Environmental domes
In-Reply-To: <006801c7ef21$b0cc80a0$126581e0$@com.au>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0709041422020.23423@ask.diku.dk>
	<55D8B259-96FE-4244-AFDF-EEDA6EE75408@ceecom.net>
	<006701c7ef1f$908d6a40$b1a83ec0$@com.au>
	<67c7124d0709041118j2431f504k36b235b6346f166a@mail.gmail.com>
	<006801c7ef21$b0cc80a0$126581e0$@com.au>
Message-ID: <7c2152230709041552h7e1949ban2ce36b7c65055d2b@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/4/07, traveller at dhimaging.com.au <traveller at dhimaging.com.au> wrote:
> And thanks to Tom for the correct name of Honor's company.
> Grayson was the name of the world that started out as the "poorer cousins",
> but ended up out-producing Manticore in ship building.
> There has to be Traveller fodder there...
>
> -joel
>
The HH 'verse is (or appears to be loosely) based around the 19th century.

Manticore = Britain
People's Republic of Haven = France
Andermani = Germany
Grayson = US

The rise of Grayson vs the other nations certainly fits.

DAve

From jzeitlin at spamcop.net  Tue Sep  4 16:58:47 2007
From: jzeitlin at spamcop.net (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 18:58:47 -0400
Subject: [TML] Environmental domes
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0709041422020.23423@ask.diku.dk>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0709041422020.23423@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <smord351h311i9sk83854g44kt55ermtj2@4ax.com>

On Tue, 4 Sep 2007 14:35:22 +0200 (CEST), you wrote:

>                               what's the American equivalent of a shire?

Probably 'county', except in Louisiana, where it'd be 'parish'.

From raikenclw at gmail.com  Tue Sep  4 17:10:00 2007
From: raikenclw at gmail.com (Richard Aiken)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 19:10:00 -0400
Subject: [TML] Cool looking uniforms
In-Reply-To: <000301c7eed3$99e9b950$f02c4b0c@YOURFEDDA97C02>
References: <20070902.155833.17756.0@webmail01.dca.untd.com>
	<5aca9be50709032146o49aa8022lc10d641d35725c68@mail.gmail.com>
	<000301c7eed3$99e9b950$f02c4b0c@YOURFEDDA97C02>
Message-ID: <5aca9be50709041610k72d18fcfr5e1151706271032a@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/4/07, Garry Ward <garry.e.ward at worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> Just the arm is black?


Well, my IN uses space-black uniforms, so on them the outlines of the black
starburst are picked out in silver (at least on the dress uniforms).  The
rest of the uniformed services use different base uniform colors.  I saw a
list of these somewhere, but I can't recall where right now.  I think I'll
use those.

 If it is the starburst that's black, how about:
>
> Blackstars.
> Blacksuns (as in blacksonab...hs).


That second one sounds interesting.  Thanks, Garry!  :-)

Oh!  Just thought of a new one: "Blackstabbers."  :-P

-- 
Richard Aiken

"Never insult anyone by accident."  Robert A. Heinlein

From raikenclw at gmail.com  Tue Sep  4 17:14:16 2007
From: raikenclw at gmail.com (Richard Aiken)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 19:14:16 -0400
Subject: [TML] Cool looking uniforms
In-Reply-To: <20070904.064332.27180.0@webmail07.dca.untd.com>
References: <20070904.064332.27180.0@webmail07.dca.untd.com>
Message-ID: <5aca9be50709041614h3522671dhd279d08d6c7d086@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/4/07, domhanai at juno.com <domhanai at juno.com> wrote:
>
> My Marines are 'bluecollars.'


I think the canon Marine uniform color is maroon.  Wherefore "bluecollar?"

But I don't think I'll use that.  One of the background assumptions of my
game is that the PCs are working stiffs.  Calling the Imperial heavy hitters
"bluecollars" has the potential to confuse things.  Thanks anyway, though.
:-)

-- 
Richard Aiken

"Never insult anyone by accident."  Robert A. Heinlein

From dave.shillito at gmail.com  Tue Sep  4 17:26:46 2007
From: dave.shillito at gmail.com (DAve Shillito)
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 00:26:46 +0100
Subject: [TML] Cool looking uniforms
In-Reply-To: <000301c7eed3$99e9b950$f02c4b0c@YOURFEDDA97C02>
References: <20070902.155833.17756.0@webmail01.dca.untd.com>
	<5aca9be50709032146o49aa8022lc10d641d35725c68@mail.gmail.com>
	<000301c7eed3$99e9b950$f02c4b0c@YOURFEDDA97C02>
Message-ID: <7c2152230709041626y51073c7m9a76d21d3d797bda@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/4/07, Garry Ward <garry.e.ward at worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> From: "Richard Aiken" <raikenclw at gmail.com>
> > Oh, BTW, in my Serene Travelling thingee, I'm currently refering
> > to Imperials as "blackarms" - for the black starburst Imperial shoulder
> > patch.  Comments?  Other suggestions for slang names used by MTU
> > Browncoats?
> Just the arm is black? If it is the starburst that's black, how about:
>
<snip>
> Blacksuns (as in blacksonab...hs).
>

Liking that one!

DAve

From domhanai at juno.com  Tue Sep  4 17:59:31 2007
From: domhanai at juno.com (domhanai at juno.com)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 23:59:31 GMT
Subject: [TML] Environmental domes
Message-ID: <20070904.165931.19146.0@webmail08.dca.untd.com>

Joseph Paul wrote:
>How big is a shire? Counties here (Indiana) seem to be about 400 square
>miles or 20 miles on a side.
With respect, Indiana county sizes are not typical; they are constrained by decades of gerrymandering and the Northwest Ordinance. Counties west of the Mississippi (roughly 60% of contiguous US) have counties 20 times the size of Indiana standard.
 
I'm sure that, with sufficient technology, any size of territory can be placed under a structure ( the OTU has floating cities, for Ghu's sake!).
 
Cougashika - fun trumps tech



_____________________________________________________________
Be your own boss today! Go to Technical School. Click here.
http://3rdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/Ioyw6iigla9cjB1VgEetv6KdFT2s15CXwedFsr5fNZhQ5m1QnKfFVS/

From domhanai at juno.com  Tue Sep  4 18:03:58 2007
From: domhanai at juno.com (domhanai at juno.com)
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 00:03:58 GMT
Subject: [TML] Environmental domes
Message-ID: <20070904.170358.19146.1@webmail08.dca.untd.com>

Leonard Erickson (aka shadow) wrote:
 
>Oddly, there have been discussions of enclosing an entire planet in a 
>"shell" which while it requires tech we don't have is actually 
>*easier* as far as stresses go, because all of the "dome" is at the 
>same altitude.

Are you refering to a "Dyson sphere" type of situation?
 
Cougashika - fun trumps tech

_____________________________________________________________
Be your own boss today! Go to Technical School. Click here.
http://3rdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/Ioyw6iigla9cjB1VgEetv6KdFT2s15CXwedFsr5fNZhQ5m1QnKfFVS/

From ajackson at iii.com  Tue Sep  4 18:34:03 2007
From: ajackson at iii.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 17:34:03 -0700
Subject: [TML] Environmental domes
In-Reply-To: <20070904.165931.19146.0@webmail08.dca.untd.com>
References: <20070904.165931.19146.0@webmail08.dca.untd.com>
Message-ID: <46DDF97B.5070706@iii.com>

domhanai at juno.com wrote:

> With respect, Indiana county sizes are not typical; they are
> constrained by decades of gerrymandering and the Northwest Ordinance.
> Counties west of the Mississippi (roughly 60% of contiguous US) have
> counties 20 times the size of Indiana standard.

In California, county size seems to vary from 46.69 square miles (San 
Francisco) to 20,052 square miles (San Bernadino). It has a lot to do 
with the population of the area at the time the counties were 
established (though I believe the next smallest county is Santa Cruz, at 
445 square miles; SF county is a bit of an oddity).

From shadow at shadowgard.com  Tue Sep  4 19:09:34 2007
From: shadow at shadowgard.com (shadow at shadowgard.com)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 18:09:34 -0700
Subject: [TML] Environmental domes
In-Reply-To: <PBELIEMAEKFJADHMKFLLMEBKGAAA.josephnjody@sbcglobal.net>
References: <46DD18B7.3349.329F10A1@shadow.shadowgard.com>,
	<PBELIEMAEKFJADHMKFLLMEBKGAAA.josephnjody@sbcglobal.net>
Message-ID: <46DD9F5E.21765.34AF1099@shadow.shadowgard.com>

On 4 Sep 2007 at 12:14, Joseph Paul wrote:

> Good points Leonard but I wasn't so concerned about keeping things in as I
> was with keeping stuff out. Bhopal could be *outside* and you don't want
> *any* of that coming in! Does any one have any figures or a breakdown of how
> many inhabited planets have tainted/poisonous/vacuum atmospheres in the OTU?

Keeping tainted atmosphere out is relatively easy. Just maintain a 
higher pressure inside. Doesn't even have to be very much higher.

I spent several years working in clean rooms that used positoive 
pressure to keep stuff out.

Vacuum I already dealt with.

Insidious and corrosive atmospheres aren't suited to this sort of 
thing. And exotic atmospheres may not be.

There aren't any remotely official figures on the distribution of 
atmosphere types. So we either wave our hands or go with the rolls 
for planet generation.


--
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow)
shadow at shadowgard dot com



From shadow at shadowgard.com  Tue Sep  4 19:09:33 2007
From: shadow at shadowgard.com (shadow at shadowgard.com)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 18:09:33 -0700
Subject: [TML] Environmental domes
In-Reply-To: <006701c7ef1f$908d6a40$b1a83ec0$@com.au>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0709041422020.23423@ask.diku.dk>,
	<55D8B259-96FE-4244-AFDF-EEDA6EE75408@ceecom.net>,
	<006701c7ef1f$908d6a40$b1a83ec0$@com.au>
Message-ID: <46DD9F5D.210.34AF0E28@shadow.shadowgard.com>

On 5 Sep 2007 at 4:15, traveller at dhimaging.com.au wrote:

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-bounces at travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-bounces at travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Evyn MacDude
> Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 2:58 AM
> To: The Traveller Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [TML] Environmental domes
> 
> 
> <snip of cool stuff>
> >  cover an area the size of a... what's the American equivalent of a  
> > shire?
> 
> There isn't one.
> 
> ===================================
> [joel]
> I think they have shires in Louisiana - and I think they are politically the
> same as counties.

No, in Louisiana, it's parishes. And in Alaska it's buroughs (and the 
areas outside buroughs are divided into "census areas")

> Honor Harrington's 'Verse has a planet that is poison to the inhabitants and
> she makes a company called "Sky Domes" (I think) with off-world tech but
> built locally with local people.  She gets really, really rich.  One of the
> books details some of the construction techniques, because someone is
> sabotaging the effort...

Yep, Grayson Sky Domes, Ltd. "Field of Dishonor", chapter 18. 

It's *so* handy having the ebooks... :-)
--
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow)
shadow at shadowgard dot com



From shadow at shadowgard.com  Tue Sep  4 19:33:25 2007
From: shadow at shadowgard.com (shadow at shadowgard.com)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 18:33:25 -0700
Subject: [TML] Environmental domes
In-Reply-To: <20070904.170358.19146.1@webmail08.dca.untd.com>
References: <20070904.170358.19146.1@webmail08.dca.untd.com>
Message-ID: <46DDA4F5.13767.34C4F3AF@shadow.shadowgard.com>

On 5 Sep 2007 at 0:03, domhanai at juno.com wrote:

> Leonard Erickson (aka shadow) wrote:
>  
> >Oddly, there have been discussions of enclosing an entire planet in a 
> >"shell" which while it requires tech we don't have is actually 
> >*easier* as far as stresses go, because all of the "dome" is at the 
> >same altitude.
> 
> Are you refering to a "Dyson sphere" type of situation?

Nope. That would be a shell enclosing a *star* at a distance 
equivalent to the habitable zone orbit for a planet. Way beyond any 
Imperial tech level. And not remotely what Dyson was talking about 
for that matter.

No, this is just "enclosing" a planet. 

One such suggestion was for Saturn or some other gas giant with a 
reasonable gravity at an altitude where the atmospheric pressure is 
near normal. The proposal allowed it to be built as large floating 
"cities" that could eventually be joined to form a shell.



--
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow)
shadow at shadowgard dot com



From raikenclw at gmail.com  Tue Sep  4 19:40:12 2007
From: raikenclw at gmail.com (Richard Aiken)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 21:40:12 -0400
Subject: [TML] Environmental domes
In-Reply-To: <46DDA4F5.13767.34C4F3AF@shadow.shadowgard.com>
References: <20070904.170358.19146.1@webmail08.dca.untd.com>
	<46DDA4F5.13767.34C4F3AF@shadow.shadowgard.com>
Message-ID: <5aca9be50709041840t36405b61r6b04ee41700a21e8@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/4/07, shadow at shadowgard.com <shadow at shadowgard.com> wrote:
>
> One such suggestion was for Saturn or some other gas giant with a
> reasonable gravity at an altitude where the atmospheric pressure is
> near normal. The proposal allowed it to be built as large floating
> "cities" that could eventually be joined to form a shell.


An inside-out planet!  Cool!

-- 
Richard Aiken

"Never insult anyone by accident."  Robert A. Heinlein

From josephnjody at sbcglobal.net  Tue Sep  4 21:05:07 2007
From: josephnjody at sbcglobal.net (Joseph Paul)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 23:05:07 -0400
Subject: [TML] Environmental domes
In-Reply-To: <20070904.165931.19146.0@webmail08.dca.untd.com>
Message-ID: <PBELIEMAEKFJADHMKFLLOECGGAAA.josephnjody@sbcglobal.net>

With respect whether they are typical or not is irrelevant. The question was
what geo-political unit was comparable to an English shire. Since there was
no data given on the mean size of the shires I decided to give some data
about a subset of county units that I had some data for.
Your assertion that the typical county is much larger is also wrong. See
this map http://www.ac.wwu.edu/~stephan/Animation/us.gif  and this site
http://www.naco.org/Template.cfm?Section=Data_and_Demographics&Template=/cff
iles/counties/sqmil_srch.cfm for the sizes of all 3066 counties in the US.
There are big ones but there are an awful lot of small ones. In fact
counties larger than 1000 sq miles comprise only 21.7% of all counties while
counties less than 600 sq miles account for 47.5% of them. It would seem
that the typical county is definitely somewhere in the 4-600 mile region.
I would be interested in hearing what you might know of actual
gerrymandering as it does not seem to have been a factor here. The counties
have very regular borders except where a river has been used to demarcate
it. In the west the county lines go all over the place which indicates a
need to include various population centers within the county lines to make a
convincing argument to the state.

Respectfully,
Joseph Paul

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-bounces at travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-bounces at travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of domhanai at juno.com
Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 8:00 PM
To: tml at travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Environmental domes


Joseph Paul wrote:
>How big is a shire? Counties here (Indiana) seem to be about 400 square
>miles or 20 miles on a side.
With respect, Indiana county sizes are not typical; they are constrained by
decades of gerrymandering and the Northwest Ordinance. Counties west of the
Mississippi (roughly 60% of contiguous US) have counties 20 times the size
of Indiana standard.

I'm sure that, with sufficient technology, any size of territory can be
placed under a structure ( the OTU has floating cities, for Ghu's sake!).

Cougashika - fun trumps tech



_____________________________________________________________
Be your own boss today! Go to Technical School. Click here.
http://3rdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/Ioyw6iigla9cjB1VgEetv6KdFT2s15CXwe
dFsr5fNZhQ5m1QnKfFVS/
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML at travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From penguin_boy at mindspring.com  Tue Sep  4 20:58:55 2007
From: penguin_boy at mindspring.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 19:58:55 -0700
Subject: [TML] Cool looking uniforms
In-Reply-To: <000301c7eed3$99e9b950$f02c4b0c@YOURFEDDA97C02>
References: <20070902.155833.17756.0@webmail01.dca.untd.com>
	<5aca9be50709032146o49aa8022lc10d641d35725c68@mail.gmail.com>
	<000301c7eed3$99e9b950$f02c4b0c@YOURFEDDA97C02>
Message-ID: <E1ISlVP-0004Nt-H3@elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

At 02:11 AM 9/4/2007, Garry Ward raced into the room, and announced 
the following:

> >
> > Oh, BTW, in my Serene Travelling thingee, I'm currently refering
> > to Imperials as "blackarms" - for the black starburst Imperial shoulder
> > patch.  Comments?  Other suggestions for slang names used by MTU
> > Browncoats?
>Just the arm is black? If it is the starburst that's black, how about:
>
>Blackstars.
>Blacksuns (as in blacksonab...hs).

That would match with them calling themselves the Black Sun Brotherhood.


--

Douglas Berry penguin_boy at mindspring.com
http://gridlore.livejournal.com/

Embrace Fascism.  The uniforms look cool.
Author of GURPS Traveller: Ground Forces





From domhanai at juno.com  Tue Sep  4 21:24:39 2007
From: domhanai at juno.com (domhanai at juno.com)
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 03:24:39 GMT
Subject: [TML] Environmental domes
Message-ID: <20070904.202439.19625.0@webmail01.dca.untd.com>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
 
>One such suggestion was for Saturn or some other gas giant with a 
>reasonable gravity at an altitude where the atmospheric pressure is 
>near normal. The proposal allowed it to be built as large floating 
>"cities" that could eventually be joined to form a shell.

Now that is an intriguing possibility. And thanks for the correction.
 
Cougashika - fur trumps tech


_____________________________________________________________
Save hundreds on Technical School - Click here.
http://3rdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/Ioyw6iiglbAGe5afCuGXDc9GqqMFi13l12Xld9GWY8oXNN8WilnN5q/

From domhanai at juno.com  Tue Sep  4 21:30:07 2007
From: domhanai at juno.com (domhanai at juno.com)
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 03:30:07 GMT
Subject: [TML] Cool looking uniforms
Message-ID: <20070904.203007.19625.1@webmail01.dca.untd.com>

I'm somewhat of a traditionalist, so why not stay with 'blackguards,' especially with the so-called pronunciation 'bla'gard.' This is especially humorous when employed by people with Asian backgrounds ....
 
Cougashika - fun trumps tech

_____________________________________________________________
Save hundreds on Technical School - Click here.
http://3rdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/Ioyw6iiglbAGe5afCuGXDc9GqqMFi13l12Xld9GWY8oXNN8WilnN5q/

From shadow at shadowgard.com  Tue Sep  4 22:07:31 2007
From: shadow at shadowgard.com (shadow at shadowgard.com)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 21:07:31 -0700
Subject: [TML] Environmental domes
In-Reply-To: <5aca9be50709041840t36405b61r6b04ee41700a21e8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20070904.170358.19146.1@webmail08.dca.untd.com>,
	<46DDA4F5.13767.34C4F3AF@shadow.shadowgard.com>,
	<5aca9be50709041840t36405b61r6b04ee41700a21e8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <46DDC913.25729.3552966A@shadow.shadowgard.com>

On 4 Sep 2007 at 21:40, Richard Aiken wrote:

> On 9/4/07, shadow at shadowgard.com <shadow at shadowgard.com> wrote:
> >
> > One such suggestion was for Saturn or some other gas giant with a
> > reasonable gravity at an altitude where the atmospheric pressure is
> > near normal. The proposal allowed it to be built as large floating
> > "cities" that could eventually be joined to form a shell.
> 
> An inside-out planet!  Cool!

Actually *not* inside out. you'd live on top of them. That's why you 
need reasonable gravity at the altitude were pressure is reasonable.

--
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow)
shadow at shadowgard dot com



From raikenclw at gmail.com  Tue Sep  4 22:50:16 2007
From: raikenclw at gmail.com (Richard Aiken)
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 00:50:16 -0400
Subject: [TML] Environmental domes
In-Reply-To: <46DDC913.25729.3552966A@shadow.shadowgard.com>
References: <20070904.170358.19146.1@webmail08.dca.untd.com>
	<46DDA4F5.13767.34C4F3AF@shadow.shadowgard.com>
	<5aca9be50709041840t36405b61r6b04ee41700a21e8@mail.gmail.com>
	<46DDC913.25729.3552966A@shadow.shadowgard.com>
Message-ID: <5aca9be50709042150s6c6155dbv20fb8cd175aba5c0@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/5/07, shadow at shadowgard.com <shadow at shadowgard.com> wrote:
>
> > An inside-out planet!  Cool!
>
> Actually *not* inside out. you'd live on top of them. That's why you
> need reasonable gravity at the altitude were pressure is reasonable.


Well, okay.  Then you've got the natural atmosphere under you and a
terraformed one over you?





-- 
Richard Aiken

"Never insult anyone by accident."  Robert A. Heinlein

From shadow at shadowgard.com  Tue Sep  4 23:50:39 2007
From: shadow at shadowgard.com (shadow at shadowgard.com)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 22:50:39 -0700
Subject: [TML] Environmental domes
In-Reply-To: <5aca9be50709042150s6c6155dbv20fb8cd175aba5c0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20070904.170358.19146.1@webmail08.dca.untd.com>,
	<46DDC913.25729.3552966A@shadow.shadowgard.com>,
	<5aca9be50709042150s6c6155dbv20fb8cd175aba5c0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <46DDE13F.20778.35B15DC8@shadow.shadowgard.com>

On 5 Sep 2007 at 0:50, Richard Aiken wrote:

> On 9/5/07, shadow at shadowgard.com <shadow at shadowgard.com> wrote:
> >
> > > An inside-out planet!  Cool!
> >
> > Actually *not* inside out. you'd live on top of them. That's why you
> > need reasonable gravity at the altitude were pressure is reasonable.
> 
> 
> Well, okay.  Then you've got the natural atmosphere under you and a
> terraformed one over you?

Kinda sorta.

It's been years, but I believe platforms did have "roof" of sorts to 
help keep their air separate from the hydrogen of the GG.

--
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow)
shadow at shadowgard dot com



From infojunky at ceecom.net  Wed Sep  5 00:14:16 2007
From: infojunky at ceecom.net (Evyn MacDude)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 23:14:16 -0700
Subject: [TML]  Threadjack Counties
In-Reply-To: <20070904.165931.19146.0@webmail08.dca.untd.com>
References: <20070904.165931.19146.0@webmail08.dca.untd.com>
Message-ID: <683FC516-63E1-4DD6-867F-24B0B9F009DF@ceecom.net>


On Sep 4, 2007, at 11:59 PM, domhanai at juno.com wrote:

> With respect, Indiana county sizes are not typical; they are  
> constrained by decades of gerrymandering

Nope no Gerrymandering in those counties borders, them is damn near  
plumb straight.

> Northwest Ordinance.

????? 'splain, please?

> Counties west of the Mississippi (roughly 60% of contiguous US)  
> have counties 20 times the size of Indiana standard.

Yes, makes sense to me, changing systems of survey allow for broader  
divisions
of land. Or gotta love the rail roads.

> I'm sure that, with sufficient technology, any size of territory  
> can be placed under a structure (

Yep, but the question was about a single dome.

Evyn MacDude
infojunky at ceecom.net

Then somewhere near Salinas, Lord, I let her slip away,
Lookin' for the home I hope she'll find.
And I'd trade all my tomorrows for a single yesterday,
			Me & Bobby Mcgee,
				Kris Kristofferson




From jursamaj at yahoo.com  Wed Sep  5 01:08:35 2007
From: jursamaj at yahoo.com (Jerry W Barrington)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 03:08:35 -0400
Subject: [TML] Environmental domes
In-Reply-To: <mailman.101.1188956413.527.tml@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <C303CE33.105AE%jursamaj@yahoo.com>

On 9/4/07 9:40 PM, "Joseph Paul" wrote:

> You might do better with figuring a suspension rig. Imagine a carbon fiber
> tower in the center that anchors suspension cables (diamond rope?) that
> connect  to other towers. Secured to the cables is your barrier material.
> Tough and light weight it drapes gracefully over the cables. It can actually
> be composed of several layers that supply filtration of air, radiation, or
> liquids. Or not. It can self-repair to a limited degree and there are
> contragrav robots for larger repairs. Need more strength? Reinforce it with
> high tech fibers like SilkSteel (TM). This would function like rip stop
> nylon.

Suspension is possible, but at the University I attended, they had an
Olympic size swimming pool under a dome that was inflated.  Fans kept the
pressure inside slightly higher than outside.  It even had cables on the
*outside* to contain it.  The differential only needs to be somewhat more
than the weight of the dome.  Thus 1 PSI higher inside pressure will support
a dome of almost 1 pound per square inch.  In this way, it doesn't matter
much how big the dome is, except that the cables end up with a lot of
tension on them.  Kind of a reverse-suspension system.

As for American counties, there's a lot of variation depending on where you
are.  Brewster Co., in SW Texas next to Mexico covers 6194 sq mi (16039 sq
km).  That's larger than the 3 smallest states!  The "average" county
(Texas' area/245 counties) is 1069 sq mi.

[Yes, I was geek enough to go do the research just for this post.]



On 9/4/07 9:40 PM, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> One such suggestion was for Saturn or some other gas giant with a
> reasonable gravity at an altitude where the atmospheric pressure is
> near normal. The proposal allowed it to be built as large floating
> "cities" that could eventually be joined to form a shell.

If you're keeping it up there by any means other than physical support, it
will be gravitationally unstable.


From jursamaj at yahoo.com  Wed Sep  5 01:09:02 2007
From: jursamaj at yahoo.com (Jerry W Barrington)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 03:09:02 -0400
Subject: [TML] Guns in Space!
In-Reply-To: <mailman.59.1188614120.527.tml@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <C303CE4E.105AE%jursamaj@yahoo.com>

On 8/31/07 10:35 PM, "Michael Jenkins" wrote:

> However, it occurs to me that the use of such a weapon could
> potentially cause a big increase in the amount of fast-moving debris
> in orbits intersecting that of the vessel with the cannon - you
> wouldn't want to be hit by your own shells or resulting debris from
> any hits one or more orbits of the shells/debris later.

Actually, this has been one of the better arguments against militarizing
space.  After an all-out orbital war, with everybody destroying each others
spy sats & weapon platforms, there  could be so much debris in orbit, and
particularly in the most popular/useful orbits, that space could become
useless for decades or even centuries.  Of course, if we nuked ourselves
back the stone age in the process, it might be a moot point.

And even for energy weapons, the debris of the target probably masses a lot
more than the shells of a kinetic gun anyway!

As for the range/sighting issue, they said it was to repel boarders.  By
definition, they have to come close and get slow.  :)

And Mike Vida, just about *anything* by Cherryh is worth the time to read.


From jursamaj at yahoo.com  Wed Sep  5 01:08:45 2007
From: jursamaj at yahoo.com (Jerry W Barrington)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 03:08:45 -0400
Subject: [TML] Jump variation
In-Reply-To: <mailman.59.1188614120.527.tml@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <C303CE3D.105AE%jursamaj@yahoo.com>

On 8/31/07 10:35 PM, Timothy Little wrote:

> That would depend quite a lot on the resolution of your light
> sensors. A separated pair of high-resolution cameras might be able to
> determine distance, but a pair of fairly omnidirectional photometers
> aren't.
> 
> If the "jump flash" is primarily gravity waves, then the wavelength
> band having the most power is likely to be similar to the scale of the
> arriving ship (or longer).  That means that the detector is going to
> need to be substantially larger than that to determine direction.
> 
> A single ship's sensors aren't likely to be able to pin down the
> direction of the arriving ship - just detect that one arrived.  A few
> separated sensors should be able to pin it down much more precisely,
> through comparing detection times if nothing else.


I would say at least 4 sensors, well separated, combining signal strength &
timing with their own positions.  Hmm.  If the events are rare enough, they
could be omni-directional and still give you accurate fixes.

The reason I say 4 instead of 3 like Greg is their is always the possibility
of up or down entry.  3 sensors can only fix to a point in their mutual
plane, with height above or below that plane unknown.  4 sensors not in the
same plane fixes that.


From jursamaj at yahoo.com  Wed Sep  5 01:09:20 2007
From: jursamaj at yahoo.com (Jerry W Barrington)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 03:09:20 -0400
Subject: [TML] Fictional Mileaux [SEC=UNOFFICIAL]
In-Reply-To: <mailman.59.1188614120.527.tml@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <C303CE60.105AE%jursamaj@yahoo.com>

On 8/31/07 10:35 PM, "Richard Aiken" wrote:

> On 8/28/07, GDWGAMES at aol.com <GDWGAMES at aol.com> wrote:
>> 
>> I call the court's attention to the Firefly universe, which seemed to
>> appeal
>> to a large number of people with "modern sensibilities" and was virtually
>> identical to your average Traveller free trader campaign, and indeed could
>> be
>> dropped into the Traveller universe with minimal ripples.
> 
> Yep.  Such is what I am doing.  All it really takes is no major alien races
> and spreading the 'Verse out to separate star systems.  Of course, it also
> takes an Imperium that's a *bit* darker and more controlling than I've had
> in the past, but I can deal.

I'd rather keep *some* major aliens.  Maybe not many, but a few.  In fact,
some of the weirdest planets would be where the population has a lot of 2 or
more races.


From shadow at shadowgard.com  Wed Sep  5 02:00:50 2007
From: shadow at shadowgard.com (shadow at shadowgard.com)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 01:00:50 -0700
Subject: [TML] Environmental domes
In-Reply-To: <C303CE33.105AE%jursamaj@yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.101.1188956413.527.tml@travellercentral.com>,
	<C303CE33.105AE%jursamaj@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <46DDFFC2.26101.3628EB01@shadow.shadowgard.com>

On 5 Sep 2007 at 3:08, Jerry W Barrington wrote:

> Suspension is possible, but at the University I attended, they had an
> Olympic size swimming pool under a dome that was inflated.  Fans kept the
> pressure inside slightly higher than outside.  It even had cables on the
> *outside* to contain it.  The differential only needs to be somewhat more
> than the weight of the dome.  Thus 1 PSI higher inside pressure will support
> a dome of almost 1 pound per square inch.  In this way, it doesn't matter
> much how big the dome is, except that the cables end up with a lot of
> tension on them.  Kind of a reverse-suspension system.

That's one of the designs that doesn't scale up well. Internal and 
external pressures change with altitude. As soon as you get city 
sized or so, you've got significantly skewed stresses.

> As for American counties, there's a lot of variation depending on where you
> are.  Brewster Co., in SW Texas next to Mexico covers 6194 sq mi (16039 sq
> km).  That's larger than the 3 smallest states!  The "average" county
> (Texas' area/245 counties) is 1069 sq mi.
> 
> [Yes, I was geek enough to go do the research just for this post.]

So was I. But mine was limited to unrolling an old base map of the 
state and looking for a large county that was roughly rectangular for 
ease of measurement.

And doing a google search for "largest county".

> On 9/4/07 9:40 PM, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
> > One such suggestion was for Saturn or some other gas giant with a
> > reasonable gravity at an altitude where the atmospheric pressure is
> > near normal. The proposal allowed it to be built as large floating
> > "cities" that could eventually be joined to form a shell.
> 
> If you're keeping it up there by any means other than physical support, it
> will be gravitationally unstable.

They are *floating* in the atmosphere. As in "bouyancy". So 
gravitational stability isn't relevant. They are supported. 

Just make sure the source of bouyancy doesn't fail. At least things 
would bre distributed enough that if a section fails, it's local 
disaster.



--
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow)
shadow at shadowgard dot com



From shadow at shadowgard.com  Wed Sep  5 02:00:51 2007
From: shadow at shadowgard.com (shadow at shadowgard.com)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 01:00:51 -0700
Subject: [TML] Jump variation
In-Reply-To: <C303CE3D.105AE%jursamaj@yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.59.1188614120.527.tml@travellercentral.com>,
	<C303CE3D.105AE%jursamaj@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <46DDFFC3.32609.3628ECC6@shadow.shadowgard.com>

On 5 Sep 2007 at 3:08, Jerry W Barrington wrote:

> I would say at least 4 sensors, well separated, combining signal strength &
> timing with their own positions.  Hmm.  If the events are rare enough, they
> could be omni-directional and still give you accurate fixes.
> 
> The reason I say 4 instead of 3 like Greg is their is always the possibility
> of up or down entry.  3 sensors can only fix to a point in their mutual
> plane, with height above or below that plane unknown.  4 sensors not in the
> same plane fixes that.

3 sensors not on the same line can generate a "point" for a source in 
their plane. And a "line" for a source not in their plane. 

That not in the same line is important. 

And in the real world, you have to worry about blind spots for each 
sensor cause by various bodies. So you'll actually need more than 4.

--
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow)
shadow at shadowgard dot com



From shadow at shadowgard.com  Wed Sep  5 02:00:51 2007
From: shadow at shadowgard.com (shadow at shadowgard.com)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 01:00:51 -0700
Subject: [TML] Guns in Space!
In-Reply-To: <C303CE4E.105AE%jursamaj@yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.59.1188614120.527.tml@travellercentral.com>,
	<C303CE4E.105AE%jursamaj@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <46DDFFC3.4567.3628EE2E@shadow.shadowgard.com>

On 5 Sep 2007 at 3:09, Jerry W Barrington wrote:

> On 8/31/07 10:35 PM, "Michael Jenkins" wrote:
> 
> > However, it occurs to me that the use of such a weapon could
> > potentially cause a big increase in the amount of fast-moving debris
> > in orbits intersecting that of the vessel with the cannon - you
> > wouldn't want to be hit by your own shells or resulting debris from
> > any hits one or more orbits of the shells/debris later.
> 
> Actually, this has been one of the better arguments against militarizing
> space.  After an all-out orbital war, with everybody destroying each others
> spy sats & weapon platforms, there  could be so much debris in orbit, and
> particularly in the most popular/useful orbits, that space could become
> useless for decades or even centuries.  Of course, if we nuked ourselves
> back the stone age in the process, it might be a moot point.

There was a story back in the 70s or 80s that had space travel being 
impossible for the next century or so because of Canada using a 
secret anti-ICBM defense against a Soviet attack on the US. 

Basically a bunch of nuclear "shaped charges" built into 
mountainsides facing in the "right" directions. Acting rather like 
nuclear claymores and sweeping the blasts of debris through low and 
medium orbits. 

There was enough junk that stayed in orbit to make manned spacecraft 
impossible and trying to orbit satellites a real crapshoot.


--
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow)
shadow at shadowgard dot com



From garry.e.ward at worldnet.att.net  Wed Sep  5 03:25:04 2007
From: garry.e.ward at worldnet.att.net (Garry Ward)
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 05:25:04 -0400
Subject: [TML] Threadjack Counties
References: <20070904.165931.19146.0@webmail08.dca.untd.com>
	<683FC516-63E1-4DD6-867F-24B0B9F009DF@ceecom.net>
Message-ID: <002701c7ef9e$a95723c0$f92e4b0c@YOURFEDDA97C02>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Evyn MacDude" <infojunky at ceecom.net>
To: "The Traveller Mailing List" <tml at travellercentral.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 2:14 AM
Subject: [TML] Threadjack Counties


>
> On Sep 4, 2007, at 11:59 PM, domhanai at juno.com wrote:
>
>> With respect, Indiana county sizes are not typical; they are
>> constrained by decades of gerrymandering
>
> Nope no Gerrymandering in those counties borders, them is damn near
> plumb straight.
>
>> Northwest Ordinance.
>
> ????? 'splain, please?
>
Act of Congress in the 1780s that laid down the rules as to how the 
territory north of the Ohio River, East of the Mississippi and south of the 
Great Lakes was to be settled. It, along with the Land Ordinace of 1785, set 
down that a township was to be 6 miles by 6 miles in size and divided into 
36 one mile square sections which were the smallest units available for 
sale.

I don't recall any rules about how the townships were to be assembled into 
counties.

I believe it was superceded by the Homestead Act of 1862, which applied west 
of the Mississippi.

Garry
>> Counties west of the Mississippi (roughly 60% of contiguous US)
>> have counties 20 times the size of Indiana standard.
>
> Yes, makes sense to me, changing systems of survey allow for broader
> divisions
> of land. Or gotta love the rail roads.
>
>> I'm sure that, with sufficient technology, any size of territory
>> can be placed under a structure (
>
> Yep, but the question was about a single dome.
>
> Evyn MacDude
> infojunky at ceecom.net
>
> Then somewhere near Salinas, Lord, I let her slip away,
> Lookin' for the home I hope she'll find.
> And I'd trade all my tomorrows for a single yesterday,
> Me & Bobby Mcgee,
> Kris Kristofferson
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML at travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 



From garry.e.ward at worldnet.att.net  Wed Sep  5 03:33:59 2007
From: garry.e.ward at worldnet.att.net (Garry Ward)
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 05:33:59 -0400
Subject: [TML] Environmental domes
References: <PBELIEMAEKFJADHMKFLLOECGGAAA.josephnjody@sbcglobal.net>
Message-ID: <003701c7ef9f$e7466fa0$f92e4b0c@YOURFEDDA97C02>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Joseph Paul" <josephnjody at sbcglobal.net>
To: "The Traveller Mailing List" <tml at travellercentral.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 11:05 PM
Subject: Re: [TML] Environmental domes


> <snip>
> I would be interested in hearing what you might know of actual
> gerrymandering as it does not seem to have been a factor here. The 
> counties
You don't gerrymander a county's borders. You gerrymander the congressional 
district the county belongs to.

I.E. to make sure that the respected senator from Yahoo consistently gets re 
elected, the state legislature, being of the same party, decides that he 
will represent Alpha, Beta and Delta counties, all of whom have large K'Kree 
populations and therefore support his mandatory vegetarianism position.

Of course, the next time that the Vargr Party controls the state 
legislature, the respected senator will find the boundaries of his district 
have changed to include Alpha, Gamma and Epsilon, with giving his district a 
large Vargr populations who will promptly vote him out of office.

Gerrymandering is a hobby of Hivers.

Garry

> have very regular borders except where a river has been used to demarcate
> it. In the west the county lines go all over the place which indicates a
> need to include various population centers within the county lines to make 
> a
> convincing argument to the state.
>
> Respectfully,
> Joseph Paul
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-bounces at travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-bounces at travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of domhanai at juno.com
> Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 8:00 PM
> To: tml at travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Environmental domes
>
>
> Joseph Paul wrote:
>>How big is a shire? Counties here (Indiana) seem to be about 400 square
>>miles or 20 miles on a side.
> With respect, Indiana county sizes are not typical; they are constrained 
> by
> decades of gerrymandering and the Northwest Ordinance. Counties west of 
> the
> Mississippi (roughly 60% of contiguous US) have counties 20 times the size
> of Indiana standard.
>
> I'm sure that, with sufficient technology, any size of territory can be
> placed under a structure ( the OTU has floating cities, for Ghu's sake!).
>
> Cougashika - fun trumps tech
>
>
>
> _____________________________________________________________
> Be your own boss today! Go to Technical School. Click here.
> http://3rdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/Ioyw6iigla9cjB1VgEetv6KdFT2s15CXwe
> dFsr5fNZhQ5m1QnKfFVS/
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML at travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML at travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 



From josephnjody at sbcglobal.net  Wed Sep  5 05:12:43 2007
From: josephnjody at sbcglobal.net (Joseph Paul)
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 07:12:43 -0400
Subject: [TML] Environmental domes
In-Reply-To: <003701c7ef9f$e7466fa0$f92e4b0c@YOURFEDDA97C02>
Message-ID: <PBELIEMAEKFJADHMKFLLEECLGAAA.josephnjody@sbcglobal.net>



-----Original Message-----
From: tml-bounces at travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-bounces at travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Garry Ward
Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 5:34 AM
To: The Traveller Mailing List
Subject: Re: [TML] Environmental domes






> <snip>
> I would be interested in hearing what you might know of actual
> gerrymandering as it does not seem to have been a factor here. The
> counties
You don't gerrymander a county's borders. You gerrymander the congressional
district the county belongs to.

I.E. to make sure that the respected senator from Yahoo consistently gets re
elected, the state legislature, being of the same party, decides that he
will represent Alpha, Beta and Delta counties, all of whom have large K'Kree
populations and therefore support his mandatory vegetarianism position.

Of course, the next time that the Vargr Party controls the state
legislature, the respected senator will find the boundaries of his district
have changed to include Alpha, Gamma and Epsilon, with giving his district a
large Vargr populations who will promptly vote him out of office.

Gerrymandering is a hobby of Hivers.

Garry

> have very regular borders except where a river has been used to demarcate
> it. In the west the county lines go all over the place which indicates a
> need to include various population centers within the county lines to make
> a
> convincing argument to the state.
>
> Respectfully,
> Joseph Paul

That's what I thought too! I am still confused by what Cougashika meant.

Respectfully,
Joseph Paul


From rgd at travellercentral.com  Wed Sep  5 06:06:13 2007
From: rgd at travellercentral.com (Rob Davenport)
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 06:06:13 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: [TML] Cool looking uniforms
In-Reply-To: <5aca9be50709041610k72d18fcfr5e1151706271032a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20070902.155833.17756.0@webmail01.dca.untd.com>
	<5aca9be50709032146o49aa8022lc10d641d35725c68@mail.gmail.com>
	<000301c7eed3$99e9b950$f02c4b0c@YOURFEDDA97C02>
	<5aca9be50709041610k72d18fcfr5e1151706271032a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.64.0709050605360.7369@rhylanor>

On Tue, 4 Sep 2007, Richard Aiken wrote:

> Oh!  Just thought of a new one: "Blackstabbers."  :-P

"Blackadders"?  :P


Rob


-- 
More Slightly Less Common Latin Phrases:
  Nullo metro compositum est.  --   It doesn't rhyme.

From deliberatus at verizon.net  Wed Sep  5 08:36:37 2007
From: deliberatus at verizon.net (Kirk Bailey)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 10:36:37 -0400
Subject: [TML] Environmental domes
In-Reply-To: <20070904.170358.19146.1@webmail08.dca.untd.com>
References: <20070904.170358.19146.1@webmail08.dca.untd.com>
Message-ID: <46DEBEF5.3010809@verizon.net>

Why boother? just give the rock gravity and some atmosphere, and it's 
habitable. AIR is not too hard, crack rock and skim a gas giant. Gravity 
depends on tech we don't have YET, but in Traveller we do. So give Ceres 
soome gravity and drop a comoet ot two on it. Then land a processing plant 
aand plow gas through it for 20 years, and you should have N2/o2 aplenty, 
and water as well. And it will stay there. then start the linchen drops, and 
moss's, and a few other starter culture seeds. Duckweed, blue-green algae, 
something that eats said primitives, ferns, them worms and a few select 
bugs, and away we go. Bugs, frogs, ducks, rabbits, mice, BEES, and we have a 
beginning ecology.

then comes along some dirty louse in a uniform with cooties, and it all goes 
to hell.

domhanai at juno.com wrote:
> Leonard Erickson (aka shadow) wrote:
>  
>> Oddly, there have been discussions of enclosing an entire planet in a 
>> "shell" which while it requires tech we don't have is actually 
>> *easier* as far as stresses go, because all of the "dome" is at the 
>> same altitude.
> 
> Are you refering to a "Dyson sphere" type of situation?
>  
> Cougashika - fun trumps tech
> 
> _____________________________________________________________
> Be your own boss today! Go to Technical School. Click here.
> http://3rdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/Ioyw6iigla9cjB1VgEetv6KdFT2s15CXwedFsr5fNZhQ5m1QnKfFVS/
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML at travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 
> 

-- 
Salute!
	-Kirk Bailey
           Think
          +-----+
          | BOX |
          +-----+
           knihT

Fnord.

From deliberatus at verizon.net  Wed Sep  5 08:40:36 2007
From: deliberatus at verizon.net (Kirk Bailey)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 10:40:36 -0400
Subject: [TML] Environmental domes
In-Reply-To: <5aca9be50709041840t36405b61r6b04ee41700a21e8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20070904.170358.19146.1@webmail08.dca.untd.com>
	<46DDA4F5.13767.34C4F3AF@shadow.shadowgard.com>
	<5aca9be50709041840t36405b61r6b04ee41700a21e8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <46DEBFE4.7030301@verizon.net>

the floating city in starwars, doing atmosphere mining.

Richard Aiken wrote:
> On 9/4/07, shadow at shadowgard.com <shadow at shadowgard.com> wrote:
>> One such suggestion was for Saturn or some other gas giant with a
>> reasonable gravity at an altitude where the atmospheric pressure is
>> near normal. The proposal allowed it to be built as large floating
>> "cities" that could eventually be joined to form a shell.
> 
> 
> An inside-out planet!  Cool!
> 

-- 
Salute!
	-Kirk Bailey
           Think
          +-----+
          | BOX |
          +-----+
           knihT

Fnord.

From infojunky at ceecom.net  Wed Sep  5 08:47:39 2007
From: infojunky at ceecom.net (Evyn MacDude)
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 07:47:39 -0700
Subject: [TML] Threadjack Counties
In-Reply-To: <002701c7ef9e$a95723c0$f92e4b0c@YOURFEDDA97C02>
References: <20070904.165931.19146.0@webmail08.dca.untd.com>
	<683FC516-63E1-4DD6-867F-24B0B9F009DF@ceecom.net>
	<002701c7ef9e$a95723c0$f92e4b0c@YOURFEDDA97C02>
Message-ID: <82D4CE8B-50E7-4443-8E33-1829972F3C71@ceecom.net>


On Sep 5, 2007, at 2:25 AM, Garry Ward wrote:

>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Evyn MacDude" <infojunky at ceecom.net>
> To: "The Traveller Mailing List" <tml at travellercentral.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 2:14 AM
> Subject: [TML] Threadjack Counties
>
>
>>
>> On Sep 4, 2007, at 11:59 PM, domhanai at juno.com wrote:
>>
>>> With respect, Indiana county sizes are not typical; they are
>>> constrained by decades of gerrymandering
>>
>> Nope no Gerrymandering in those counties borders, them is damn near
>> plumb straight.
>>
>>> Northwest Ordinance.
>>
>> ????? 'splain, please?
>>
> Act of Congress in the 1780s that laid down the rules as to how the
> territory north of the Ohio River, East of the Mississippi and  
> south of the
> Great Lakes was to be settled. It, along with the Land Ordinace of  
> 1785, set
> down that a township was to be 6 miles by 6 miles in size and  
> divided into
> 36 one mile square sections which were the smallest units available  
> for
> sale.

That I knew......

> I don't recall any rules about how the townships were to be  
> assembled into
> counties.

This is the question. The Act talks about statehood and being a  
territory
not much about the internal arraignment.

> I believe it was superceded by the Homestead Act of 1862, which  
> applied west
> of the Mississippi.

Pretty much. then layer on the railroad grants it's gone.

Evyn MacDude
infojunky at ceecom.net

Don?t let the fans touch your assets.
				Bruce Harlick, 2007



From deliberatus at verizon.net  Wed Sep  5 08:56:31 2007
From: deliberatus at verizon.net (Kirk Bailey)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 10:56:31 -0400
Subject: [TML] Jump variation
In-Reply-To: <46DDFFC3.32609.3628ECC6@shadow.shadowgard.com>
References: <mailman.59.1188614120.527.tml@travellercentral.com>,
	<C303CE3D.105AE%jursamaj@yahoo.com>
	<46DDFFC3.32609.3628ECC6@shadow.shadowgard.com>
Message-ID: <46DEC39F.90400@verizon.net>



shadow at shadowgard.com wrote:
> On 5 Sep 2007 at 3:08, Jerry W Barrington wrote:
> 
>> I would say at least 4 sensors, well separated, combining signal strength &
>> timing with their own positions.  Hmm.  If the events are rare enough, they
>> could be omni-directional and still give you accurate fixes.
>>
>> The reason I say 4 instead of 3 like Greg is their is always the possibility
>> of up or down entry.  3 sensors can only fix to a point in their mutual
>> plane, with height above or below that plane unknown.  4 sensors not in the
>> same plane fixes that.
> 
> 3 sensors not on the same line can generate a "point" for a source in 
> their plane. And a "line" for a source not in their plane. 
> 
3 sensors are ALWAYS on a plane. Think about it. Minimum to 'not be on a 
plane' is 4. 3 can not be on a line, but will be on a plane, always.
> That not in the same line is important. 
> 
> And in the real world, you have to worry about blind spots for each 
> sensor cause by various bodies. So you'll actually need more than 4.
> 
> --
> Leonard Erickson (aka shadow)
> shadow at shadowgard dot com
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML at travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 
> 

-- 
Salute!
	-Kirk Bailey
           Think
          +-----+
          | BOX |
          +-----+
           knihT

Fnord.

From garry.e.ward at att.net  Wed Sep  5 09:11:46 2007
From: garry.e.ward at att.net (garry.e.ward@worldnet.att.net)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 15:11:46 +0000
Subject: [TML] Threadjack Counties
Message-ID: <090520071511.9641.46DEC731000D601B000025A921587667550B9D0E99D20AD2979D9D0E09@att.net>



-------------- Original message from Evyn MacDude <infojunky at ceecom.net>: -------------- 


> 
> On Sep 5, 2007, at 2:25 AM, Garry Ward wrote: 
> 
> > 
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "Evyn MacDude" 
> > To: "The Traveller Mailing List" 
> > Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 2:14 AM 
> > Subject: [TML] Threadjack Counties 
> > 
> > 
> >> 
> >> On Sep 4, 2007, at 11:59 PM, domhanai at juno.com wrote: 
> >> 
> >>> With respect, Indiana county sizes are not typical; they are 
> >>> constrained by decades of gerrymandering 
> >> 
> >> Nope no Gerrymandering in those counties borders, them is damn near 
> >> plumb straight. 
> >> 
> >>> Northwest Ordinance. 
> >> 
> >> ????? 'splain, please? 
> >> 
> > Act of Congress in the 1780s that laid down the rules as to how the 
> > territory north of the Ohio River, East of the Mississippi and 
> > south of the 
> > Great Lakes was to be settled. It, along with the Land Ordinace of 
> > 1785, set 
> > down that a township was to be 6 miles by 6 miles in size and 
> > divided into 
> > 36 one mile square sections which were the smallest units available 
> > for 
> > sale. 
> 
> That I knew...... 
> 
> > I don't recall any rules about how the townships were to be 
> > assembled into 
> > counties. 
> 
> This is the question. The Act talks about statehood and being a 
> territory 
> not much about the internal arraignment. 
> 
Yep, that was left up to the local political machinery. As long as they met the requirements for statehood, the feds back then didn't care much how they were internally organized, county, parish, shire, district, bordello, whatever they wanted at the local level.

Garry
> > I believe it was superceded by the Homestead Act of 1862, which 
> > applied west 
> > of the Mississippi. 
> 
> Pretty much. then layer on the railroad grants it's gone. 
> 
> Evyn MacDude 
> infojunky at ceecom.net 
> 
> Don?t let the fans touch your assets. 
> Bruce Harlick, 2007 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________ 
> TML mailing list 
> TML at travellercentral.com 
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml 

From domhanai at juno.com  Wed Sep  5 09:25:49 2007
From: domhanai at juno.com (domhanai at juno.com)
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 15:25:49 GMT
Subject: [TML] Threadjack Counties
Message-ID: <20070905.082549.1931.0@webmail10.dca.untd.com>

Evyn MacDude wrote:
><snip>
>This is the question. The Act talks about statehood and being a  
>territory not much about the internal arraignment.
><snip>
 
Mea culpa. You are correct, of course, about the NW Ordinance. It was the Land Ordinance of 1785 that created the township divisions under the Public Land Survey System. The PLSS also designated section #16 in each township to go toward funding public education, and sections #8,11,26 and 29 were retained by the federal government for its own purposes (ostensibly to support Revolutionary War veterans).
So, what size dome you want; 2.6 km sq, 5.2 km sq ( the area of the four federal sections), or10 km sq? Plan your structure appropriately; just remember that a dome will be a round building in a square plot. A REALLY square plot!
 
Cougashika - "- but who cares?!?" Ruby Rod (Chris Rock), "Fifth Element"


_____________________________________________________________
Get the software you need to effectively manage your portfolio. Click now!
http://3rdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/Ioyw6iieTdwH4nbW5H21pLLmyFxs5BBLncQVwsMATpjutcFZKQfO40/

From gmgoffin at yahoo.com  Wed Sep  5 09:50:26 2007
From: gmgoffin at yahoo.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 08:50:26 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [TML] Environmental Domes
In-Reply-To: <mailman.101.1188956413.527.tml@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <73773.11645.qm@web34804.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

> From: Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen <rancke at diku.dk>

> An old problem of mine has cropped up again. The TU is littered
> with crummy worlds that nevertheless have sizable populations. 
> Some of them I put into sealed caves, some of them I put into 
> arcologies, but some of them I like to put under environmental 
> domes, preferrably domes that are large enough to have 
> agricultural fields and sculptured landscapes -- maybe
> even national parks -- beneath them. I'd like them to be a mile
> high and cover an area the size of a... what's the American 
> equivalent of a shire?

I think "county" is about right, but on the East Coast, it may be
"township".

> My problem is that I have no idea what the maximum plausible size
> of such a dome is at various tech levels. 

Hans,

Regardless of technical capability, the bigger the dome, the more
lives are at risk in case of breach, regardless of the particular
conditions. Vacuum and poisonous, corrosive, and insidious
atmospheres all present different specific problems, but basically,
you want keep living space separated from them.

A safer approach is multiple, interconnected, domes. If one is
breached, you can seal it off and send in rescue teams.  Buildings
will have the ability to keep out whatever the local problem is, at
least for some period of time.

--Glenn


       
____________________________________________________________________________________
Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase.
http://farechase.yahoo.com/

From ajackson at iii.com  Wed Sep  5 10:23:08 2007
From: ajackson at iii.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 09:23:08 -0700
Subject: [TML] Environmental domes
In-Reply-To: <46DDFFC2.26101.3628EB01@shadow.shadowgard.com>
References: <mailman.101.1188956413.527.tml@travellercentral.com>,
	<C303CE33.105AE%jursamaj@yahoo.com>
	<46DDFFC2.26101.3628EB01@shadow.shadowgard.com>
Message-ID: <46DED7EC.4030906@iii.com>

shadow at shadowgard.com wrote:

> That's one of the designs that doesn't scale up well. Internal and 
> external pressures change with altitude. As soon as you get city 
> sized or so, you've got significantly skewed stresses.

Predictable stresses, however, and if the reason you're using a dome is 
because of a vacuum, trace, or very thin atmosphere, you're going to be 
pressurized anyway, so you might as well take advantage of it.

From domhanai at juno.com  Wed Sep  5 10:14:08 2007
From: domhanai at juno.com (domhanai at juno.com)
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 16:14:08 GMT
Subject: [TML] Gerrymandering,  was Re:  Threadjack Counties
Message-ID: <20070905.091408.22480.0@webmail14.dca.untd.com>

Again, it was NOT my intent to disparage the fine state of Indiana (since my son and his estranged family live there), but to point out two (2) systems that had a direct effect on the configuration of counties EAST of the Mississippi.
The Land Ordinance of 1785 (which I misrepresented as the Northwest Ordinance), more than dividing upon the territory of the Ohio River ( in which Indiana was included), established a systematic division of land that was in effect until the Homestead Act. Since most of the territory covered under the NWO and LO was parceled out by the time of the HA, most of it was not affected by the Act, though the territories west of the Mississippi were (the HA, in its way, contributed to the larger states and counties). What was important is that townships were not the homogeneous entities we believe they should have been, so the counties, parishes, etc. created within one township would bleed over into other townships according to political adjustments at the state level, which being closer to the population than the federal government took priority in the establishment of the counties (the township / section was federal; the population is local).
 
This is where gerrymandering comes in. County boundaries are more likely to shift when municipalities grow, absorb other incorporated munis, etc., as well as group influxes (Scandinavian population in Wisconsin, for an extreme) cause voting blocs to form. Any politician who wanted to keep his job had two choices: pander to as many blocs in his area as he could, or capitalize on those blocs he knew supported him, and reinforce those blocs through boundary manipulation. He can't manipulate the federal township boundaries, unless he  wants undue attention to what he's trying to do. Ah, but the STATE legislatures are flexible and, if of the same party, accommodating.
I didn't deliberately omit the railroads, BTW; everybody knows about the "bad" railroads and their "land grabs," so it was a given. Besides, most of the territory in the Old Northwest was already owned by the time the railroads needed more land to grab.
Now, what does this have to do with the price of spice? ObTrav: Dome Wars! Vargr domes at war with Vilani, Aslan domes at war with Swordies, and Solie domes at war with everybody. As the little domes change hands, the opportunity to enlarge over already held territory domes becomes tempting. Or, I could be wrong....
 
Cougashika - fun trumps tech (or legalism)

_____________________________________________________________
Learn to trade with confidence! Online Stock Trading. Click Now!
http://3rdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/Ioyw6iiejkVn3yUztnkZkxZMFPnUhjEbl7JoDQWzYP18wwfJJqrfhi/

From dave.shillito at gmail.com  Wed Sep  5 10:26:03 2007
From: dave.shillito at gmail.com (DAve Shillito)
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 17:26:03 +0100
Subject: [TML] Threadjack Counties
In-Reply-To: <20070905.082549.1931.0@webmail10.dca.untd.com>
References: <20070905.082549.1931.0@webmail10.dca.untd.com>
Message-ID: <7c2152230709050926p64b78427i56ffb58059d863f@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/5/07, domhanai at juno.com <domhanai at juno.com> wrote:
> Cougashika - "- but who cares?!?" Ruby Rod (Chris Rock), "Fifth Element"

<pedant>
        Ruby Rhod (Chris Tucker	), "Fifth Element"
</pedant>

DAve

From raikenclw at gmail.com  Wed Sep  5 12:07:58 2007
From: raikenclw at gmail.com (Richard Aiken)
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 14:07:58 -0400
Subject: [TML] Fictional Mileaux [SEC=UNOFFICIAL]
In-Reply-To: <C303C