From infojunky at ceecom.net  Tue Apr  1 00:27:17 2008
From: infojunky at ceecom.net (Evyn MacDude)
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 23:27:17 -0700
Subject: [TML] An odd Idea
In-Reply-To: <47F185C0.2000609@urbin.net>
References: <E9054686-1666-4F36-8858-FC7F9E2350BE@ceecom.net>	<47F16ACB.1010600@iii.com>	<C7010395-FC26-4BDF-A6AA-724EBA86DA8F@ceecom.net>
	<47F17049.9050001@iii.com> <47F185C0.2000609@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <A08F7CC9-72E1-4744-B6F6-445076D5F986@ceecom.net>


On  Mar31 08, at 17:45, Mark Urbin wrote:

> Anthony Jackson wrote:
>> Evyn MacDude wrote:
>>> People gather at crossroads,
>
> ...and bars.

See, you get it....

I'm cracking out the LLBs and some dice....


Evyn MacDude
infojunky at ceecom.net

"When a meeting, or part thereof, is held under the Chatham House  
Rule, participants are free to use the information received, but  
neither the identity nor the affiliation of the speaker(s), nor that  
of any other participant, may be revealed"






From darvedd at gmail.com  Tue Apr  1 01:29:37 2008
From: darvedd at gmail.com (Michael Jenkins)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 15:29:37 +0800
Subject: [TML] correlation is not causation (was Propagation times
	fornews services in Imperium)
In-Reply-To: <f495db580803312246t6d16a1a4oc15f148a041f223a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f495db580803310806m295fb491y88ec18c55e003cda@mail.gmail.com>
	<C416F1D1.13217%jerry.barrington@gmail.com>
	<f495db580803312246t6d16a1a4oc15f148a041f223a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1832b5750804010029l574fd2a6r57e7f3366fb9039f@mail.gmail.com>

On 01/04/2008, Knapp <magick.crow at gmail.com> wrote:
> I do have a home protection weapon. For most of the past it was a
>  antique samurai sword but now is a 3 foot stick. I would not want to
>  face a gun with it but I would and my chances would be good unless the
>  in house attacker had his weapon out and was a long ways away from me
>  ie over 10 feet (3 meters) away (hard to do in my German house). My
>  friends and I have tested this out with water guns and some others
>  with paint guns. Naturally, running away first is the way to go if you
>  can.

<Mode: Monty Python - aka [humour, explicit]>
What about a point-ed stick?
</Mode>

-- 
Regards,
Michael Jenkins
--
You cannot deny the humanity of another human being
Without also denying humanity in yourself
--

From kaladorn at gmail.com  Tue Apr  1 02:04:15 2008
From: kaladorn at gmail.com (Tom B)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 04:04:15 -0400
Subject: [TML] correlation is not causation (was Propagation times
	fornews services in Imperium)
In-Reply-To: <1832b5750804010029l574fd2a6r57e7f3366fb9039f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f495db580803310806m295fb491y88ec18c55e003cda@mail.gmail.com>
	<C416F1D1.13217%jerry.barrington@gmail.com>
	<f495db580803312246t6d16a1a4oc15f148a041f223a@mail.gmail.com>
	<1832b5750804010029l574fd2a6r57e7f3366fb9039f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b50d33430804010104g54ebe3c4j3d21b7b9d756628d@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 1, 2008 at 3:29 AM, Michael Jenkins <darvedd at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 01/04/2008, Knapp <magick.crow at gmail.com> wrote:
> > I do have a home protection weapon. For most of the past it was a
> >  antique samurai sword but now is a 3 foot stick. I would not want to
> >  face a gun with it but I would and my chances would be good unless the
> >  in house attacker had his weapon out and was a long ways away from me
> >  ie over 10 feet (3 meters) away (hard to do in my German house). My
> >  friends and I have tested this out with water guns and some others
> >  with paint guns. Naturally, running away first is the way to go if you
> >  can.
>
> <Mode: Monty Python - aka [humour, explicit]>
> What about a point-ed stick?
> </Mode>
>

That would be the short-shaft assegai. Probably about as dangerous as a
katana or a wakisashi in close quarters fighting. In really constrained
areas, a Fairburn Sykes knife with the conical locking nut would be a good
choice - double sided, can strike with pommel as well as the blade, can
slash either direction or stab.

My old Sensei (Nidan Rev. William "Bill" Bickford of Kingston) used to say
that a sword was a good option for home defense. Inside of 10', probably
more lethal than a pistol (especially if the sword wielder is trained and
the pistoleer probably not so much). It had, as he put it, the added
advantage of being quiet enough not to disturb the neighbours. Of course,
Sensei bill would probably talk the intruder down or just use an Kotagaeshi
or Shihonage to drop the fellow gently to the ground and disarm him without
causing him more than some discomfort.

If you want to have a gun at home, some of the modern security methods that
require ring keys or various biometric access mechanisms to allow the weapon
to be fired could be quite an advantage as far as safety goes. Removes a lot
of the risk of accidental shootings or being shot with your own gun. And
even with what I said before about sword or spear, a Glock 30 in the hands
of someone trained in firearms retention and CQB would probably be more
dangerous. It's just that most of the sorts who'd invade your home aren't
trained or in top form (thankfully). If you've got ERT or JTF2 folks kicking
down your door, you've got some serious problems.

TomB

From kaladorn at gmail.com  Tue Apr  1 02:05:13 2008
From: kaladorn at gmail.com (Tom B)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 04:05:13 -0400
Subject: [TML] correlation is not causation (was Propagation times
	fornews services in Imperium)
In-Reply-To: <b50d33430804010104g54ebe3c4j3d21b7b9d756628d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f495db580803310806m295fb491y88ec18c55e003cda@mail.gmail.com>
	<C416F1D1.13217%jerry.barrington@gmail.com>
	<f495db580803312246t6d16a1a4oc15f148a041f223a@mail.gmail.com>
	<1832b5750804010029l574fd2a6r57e7f3366fb9039f@mail.gmail.com>
	<b50d33430804010104g54ebe3c4j3d21b7b9d756628d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b50d33430804010105s767b7effq370aecb515887c44@mail.gmail.com>

Somehow, forgot the links.

On Tue, Apr 1, 2008 at 4:04 AM, Tom B <kaladorn at gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Tue, Apr 1, 2008 at 3:29 AM, Michael Jenkins <darvedd at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On 01/04/2008, Knapp <magick.crow at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > I do have a home protection weapon. For most of the past it was a
> > >  antique samurai sword but now is a 3 foot stick. I would not want to
> > >  face a gun with it but I would and my chances would be good unless
> > the
> > >  in house attacker had his weapon out and was a long ways away from me
> > >  ie over 10 feet (3 meters) away (hard to do in my German house). My
> > >  friends and I have tested this out with water guns and some others
> > >  with paint guns. Naturally, running away first is the way to go if
> > you
> > >  can.
> >
> > <Mode: Monty Python - aka [humour, explicit]>
> > What about a point-ed stick?
> > </Mode>
> >
>
> That would be the short-shaft assegai. Probably about as dangerous as a
> katana or a wakisashi in close quarters fighting. In really constrained
> areas, a Fairburn Sykes knife with the conical locking nut would be a good
> choice - double sided, can strike with pommel as well as the blade, can
> slash either direction or stab.
>

http://www.esa-swords.com/FairbairnSykesBC7.htm

http://www.coldsteel.com/spears-high-performance-spears.html

From darbyeckles at yahoo.com  Tue Apr  1 07:39:15 2008
From: darbyeckles at yahoo.com (darby eckles)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 06:39:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [TML] An Odd Idea
In-Reply-To: <mailman.21.1207011738.552.tml@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <929890.68712.qm@web39703.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Tom Naro wrote:
  >(In one game the graveyard was simply an ancient battlefield or a
> weapons testing range.  In another, it was a "mis-jump" attractor.)
   
  The first game i ran with the Gateway book I did something similar, though it was a misjump causer.  Every so often, when certain planets within a pair of distant systems lined up with their suns, a fantastic lightshow would occur in both systems, stretching out towards their fringe in the direction of the other system.  The intensity of the light show depended on several factors, such as what other planets or systems were in the way or near alignment, etc.  People would come to the two systems (I think they were 5p or 8p apart) to study the phenomenon, as they figured that it may be caused by some old ruins carved into some mountains (variants were found on both planets).  It was also known that when the lightshow was on, a lot of misjumps within the interviening and surrounding areas occured, so there was a sort of schedule for those parts.
   
  Anyways, that was a splash of color for the adventure, which actually involved the players working for the ISS, preventing an insane Solomani Privateer from rearing up a small Navy to attack a populated moon, as well as rescuing a "kidnapped" K'kree from some pastoral extremists (well, the K'kree was actually one of those aberations that could stand Humans, and arranged the whole thing as a way to get his Herd to have an area intervention), and deliver a Prince back to his lands (as well as protect him, as it was the moon that was going to be attacked) who turned out to be an imposter, but that was actually known by the people before hand, so it was ok.... BREATH.... and anyways it was never finished, and the players never discovered teh 'whys' of the lightshow, nor did the big battle occur between some Vargr allies (they were operating out of the old Darkling ship) and the Soli attack force, nor did the K'kree jump into the middle of it while transiting through on their
 way to their "intervention"... basically none of the REAL fun for me, the GM, happened.  
   
  Perhaps someday we'll get back to it.  I've got it all written out and waiting... 
   
  Darby

       
---------------------------------
You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost.

From pbrenton at MIT.EDU  Tue Apr  1 11:45:59 2008
From: pbrenton at MIT.EDU (Peter Brenton)
Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2008 13:45:59 -0400
Subject: [TML] An odd Idea
In-Reply-To: <C416FBDB.1321F%jerry.barrington@gmail.com>
References: <358229.53381.qm@web53701.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<C416FBDB.1321F%jerry.barrington@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20080401134437.058d1d48@po10.mit.edu>

No no, Masons, ancient Solomani in funny hats that do human sacrifice 
where no one can see them.

Unfortunately, as armor penetrators go, they are somewhat squishy.

At 08:36 PM 3/31/2008, you wrote:
>On 3/31/08 5:47 PM, "Tom Naro" <tomnaro at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > The main conduit between the habitats and the docking center was 
> the recovered
> > barrel of a mason cannon prototype.
>               ^^^^^
>
>Sorry, can't resist...
>
>We're throwing bricks at them now?!?  XD
>
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML at travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

Peter Brenton
"A good Traveller has no fixed plans and is not intent on arriving." 
Lao Tzu [Capitalization mine] 

From erisred at bellsouth.net  Tue Apr  1 16:04:02 2008
From: erisred at bellsouth.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2008 17:04:02 -0500
Subject: [TML] A Bit of Fluff
Message-ID: <47F2B152.7090505@bellsouth.net>

Here's something a bit different, just a bit of fluff from one 
of the PBEM's I'm running.

The PC's are on a "camping trip" on a very thin atmosphere 
planet. They want to visit "The Crystal Desert", seeing it at 
midnight and sunrise when it is suppose to be "the wonder of 
the whole sector." They also will be camping near the route 
where "The Great Land Yacht" race will be passing tomorrow as 
the sail powered, grav lifted, yachts speed across the 
thousand kilometer course from the Star Port to Hoffburg, 
where they will circle the town and sail back.  Our PC's think 
taking a pair of smaller land yachts out and camping along the 
race's route will be interesting entertainment.  They are just 
leaving Hoffburg where they've rented their boats...

 >>> Glancing at the limp sail she adds, "I'll take this
 >>> boat out of the hanger under grav power, but I'm anxious
 >>> to try out the sail once we get onto open ground."
 >>  Bernie settles in next to Tasha. "How long will it take
 >>  to reach our destination?"
 >
 >  Mal'ya gave the craft a slight push with the repulsors as
 >  the doors to the hanger drifted open, muttering almost
 >  gaily under her breath, "...all ahead one quarter..."

The man at the hanger doors pushes a button and the large 
double doors slowly open leaving only a gravity gradient 
curtain separating the thick warm air inside the hanger from 
the thin cold atmosphere outside. The semi-transparent curtain 
of gravity shimmers like a soap bubble when you look at it.

Gravity gradient curtains are common on low (and even no) 
atmosphere planets. They aren't strong enough to "carry a 
load" or even retain a higher pressure atmosphere permanently, 
but they are strong enough to temporarily minimize the loss of 
air as you move from the T-normal atmospheric pressure inside 
a building into the low or no pressure environment outside. 
Pressure doors are still required, and air-locks are still 
common, but these gravity curtains make living on low pressure 
worlds much easier.

The two small land yachts move ahead sluggishly on their grav 
drives, sails limp against the tall masts. As the boats move 
through the curtain it shimmers iridescently all around you. 
You feel an increase in pressure, then a sudden drop and the 
bite of the cold thin atmosphere as you emerge on the other 
side. All of you raise a hand, almost instinctively, to the
respirator mask covering your mouth and nose adjusting it
*securely* into place.

Your cold weather clothing keeps your body warm, and all of
the jackets come with hoods you can pull up to cover your
heads and most of your faces, if you wish. Each of you also 
has goggles to cover your eyes, but all of you have the 
goggles around your necks at the moment, and the cold bites at 
your exposed skin there.  The gloves of your cold weather gear 
keep your hands warm, but are so thin and flexible that it is 
almost as if your hands are uncovered. The heated leggings 
under the padded trousers keep your lower extremities equally 
warm, and the spacer boots you wear will keep your feet warm 
right down to liquid oxygen temperatures.

An unpaved track heads from the hanger out of town toward the 
desert. Even the track ends at the edge of town, leaving you 
to head west into the desert. A wind from the north is 
whipping up shimmering dust in the very thin atmosphere. The 
fine grains of dust sting your eyes, and the sinking sun 
glares angrily making it hard to see ahead.

You squint and look ahead. No one speaks for a few seconds as 
you all take it in. A very faint hum is all you hear over the 
comm dots you each wear, then Elaine says, "My god it's 
beautiful!"

Stretching to the horizon is a vast expanse of emptiness. 
There is almost none of the low growing vegetation you saw on 
the monorail during the trip out from the star port, just 
rolling hills and sharp edged bluffs outlined in stark 
shadows. But the landscape is anything but colorless. Shades 
of color ranging from deep red to yellow gold streak the sands 
and dot the bluffs. This is all set against the brooding red 
of the sun in the sky ahead of you which has turned the sky 
shades of red and orange!

(Picture sailing out into a Martian landscape...temperature is 
a bit higher and so is the air pressure, but not much, and the 
sun is much bigger and redder.)

Time to set the sails and see if you can really handle these 
boats...

...hope you enjoyed the read.

Eris

From jerry.barrington at gmail.com  Tue Apr  1 16:23:13 2008
From: jerry.barrington at gmail.com (Jerry W Barrington)
Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2008 18:23:13 -0400
Subject: [TML] A Bit of Fluff
In-Reply-To: <47F2B152.7090505@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <C4182E11.13243%jerry.barrington@gmail.com>

On 4/1/08 6:04 PM, "Eris Reddoch" <erisred at bellsouth.net> wrote:

> ...hope you enjoyed the read.

Nice.  :)


From tomnaro at yahoo.com  Tue Apr  1 17:55:07 2008
From: tomnaro at yahoo.com (Tom Naro)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 16:55:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [TML] An odd Idea
Message-ID: <347666.71109.qm@web53712.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

Mole mole at travellercentral.com wrote:
>On Mar 31, 2008, at 5:51 PM, Eris Reddoch wrote:
>>
>> In a different game, I postulate the existance of a few
>> naturally occurring "jump gates/worm holes" that allow certain
>> classes of ships to transverse 8, 10, 20 parsecs in an
>> instant. These jump gates have the limitation that only
>> seriously small volumes can go through them at one
>> time...ranging from a few dtons up to a thousand or two. Large
>> freighters off load their cargo in one of these systems and
>> their cargos pass through on "barges" or aboard small ships.
>>
>> There are only a half dozen of these gate pairs in all of
>> known space, so they don't have a major impact on the TU, but
>> they do add some flavor...the PC's in that game wanted to "get
>>  home" and were able to cut off several months of travel by
>> using one of those gates. It's quite possible that they (or
>> some other PC group) might stumble across a previously
>> undiscovered gate pair at some point...the problem, of course,
>> will be how can I run that and not "spoil" the PC's...:)...but
>> I'm sure we'll work that out.

>Just make them hideously expensive to traverse.


Or hazardous in a medical sense.  Too much wormhole radiation over your lifetime and you just die.  Maybe it is safe to go through once every year.
 
In any case, anything that is faster that J6/week is going to have a serious impact on the traveller setting.
 
(I can really get my players into a scramble over any technology that looks like it might go faster.  Of course, those things never seem to work out as promised. <evil DM grin>)


      ____________________________________________________________________________________
You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost.  
http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com

From jerry.barrington at gmail.com  Tue Apr  1 17:55:23 2008
From: jerry.barrington at gmail.com (Jerry W Barrington)
Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2008 19:55:23 -0400
Subject: [TML] Maps
Message-ID: <C41843AB.13246%jerry.barrington@gmail.com>

For all the Ozzies & Kiwis, scroll down a bit.  :)

<http://www.b3ta.com/challenge/maps/>


From tomnaro at yahoo.com  Tue Apr  1 18:17:36 2008
From: tomnaro at yahoo.com (Tom Naro)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 17:17:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [TML] An odd Idea
Message-ID: <744081.18419.qm@web53705.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

Peter Brenton pbrenton at MIT.EDU wrote:
>On 3/31/08 5:47 PM, "Tom Naro" <tomnaro at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> > The main conduit between the habitats and the docking center was 
>> the recovered
>> > barrel of a mason cannon prototype.
>>              ^^^^^
>>
>>Sorry, can't resist...
>>
>>We're throwing bricks at them now?!?  XD
>>
>No no, Masons, ancient Solomani in funny hats that do human sacrifice 
>where no one can see them. Unfortunately, as armor penetrators go, 
>they are somewhat squishy.

But Mason Jars full of jam are good against radar. 


      ____________________________________________________________________________________
You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost.  
http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com

From raikenclw at gmail.com  Tue Apr  1 20:50:04 2008
From: raikenclw at gmail.com (Richard Aiken)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 22:50:04 -0400
Subject: [TML] An odd Idea
In-Reply-To: <744081.18419.qm@web53705.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <744081.18419.qm@web53705.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5aca9be50804011950l70960bc7i3b17d9f5e31499a7@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 1, 2008 at 8:17 PM, Tom Naro <tomnaro at yahoo.com> wrote:
> But Mason Jars full of jam are good against radar.

Ouch!  That was positively painful.  Particularly as I must be getting
slow, since it took a few moments for the pun to sink in . . .

-- 
Richard Aiken

"Never insult anyone by accident." Robert A. Heinlein

From darvedd at gmail.com  Tue Apr  1 21:09:07 2008
From: darvedd at gmail.com (Michael Jenkins)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 11:09:07 +0800
Subject: [TML] A Bit of Fluff
In-Reply-To: <47F2B152.7090505@bellsouth.net>
References: <47F2B152.7090505@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <1832b5750804012009s1b2d7742hc8d4d5db2ada8134@mail.gmail.com>

On 02/04/2008, Eris Reddoch <erisred at bellsouth.net> wrote:
> Here's something a bit different, just a bit of fluff from one
>  of the PBEM's I'm running.
>
> <snip excellent land yacht scenario>

Hmm ... land yachts with grav lifts ... nice idea ... but it occurs to
me that roll stability could be an issue - a decent push from the wind
on an overhead sail and the craft could potentially roll over so far
as to lose power from the sail.

Possible solutions:

Have the CG centre of lift point well above the vehicle's centre of
balance, so that it self rights.

Have a keel below the vessel to counterbalance. The keel would
probably need to be an aerofoil shape with some control over its angle
of attack.

I'm not sure these possibilities provide a complete solution to the problem.

-- 
Regards,
Michael Jenkins
--
You cannot deny the humanity of another human being
Without also denying humanity in yourself
--

From raikenclw at gmail.com  Tue Apr  1 22:24:37 2008
From: raikenclw at gmail.com (Richard Aiken)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 00:24:37 -0400
Subject: [TML] A Bit of Fluff
In-Reply-To: <1832b5750804012009s1b2d7742hc8d4d5db2ada8134@mail.gmail.com>
References: <47F2B152.7090505@bellsouth.net>
	<1832b5750804012009s1b2d7742hc8d4d5db2ada8134@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5aca9be50804012124x57ffbf87jaf095bcc2c8d8759@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 1, 2008 at 11:09 PM, Michael Jenkins <darvedd at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 02/04/2008, Eris Reddoch <erisred at bellsouth.net> wrote:
> Possible solutions:
>
> Have the CG centre of lift point well above the vehicle's centre of
> balance, so that it self rights.
>
> Have a keel below the vessel to counterbalance. The keel would
> probably need to be an aerofoil shape with some control over its angle
> of attack.

Doubled masts and sails - one set above the "boat" and the other below
it.  ISTR that the GDW boardgame "Cloudships and Gunboats" dealt with
this.  Unfortunately, I can't recall exactly what it said and the
actual game is in storage.

-- 
Richard Aiken

"Never insult anyone by accident." Robert A. Heinlein

From erisred at bellsouth.net  Tue Apr  1 22:28:29 2008
From: erisred at bellsouth.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2008 23:28:29 -0500
Subject: [TML] A Bit of Fluff
In-Reply-To: <1832b5750804012009s1b2d7742hc8d4d5db2ada8134@mail.gmail.com>
References: <47F2B152.7090505@bellsouth.net>
	<1832b5750804012009s1b2d7742hc8d4d5db2ada8134@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47F30B6D.5050400@bellsouth.net>

Michael Jenkins wrote:
> On 02/04/2008, Eris Reddoch <erisred at bellsouth.net> wrote:
>> Here's something a bit different, just a bit of fluff from one
>>  of the PBEM's I'm running.
>>
>> <snip excellent land yacht scenario>

Thanks.

> Hmm ... land yachts with grav lifts ... nice idea ... but it occurs to
> me that roll stability could be an issue - a decent push from the wind
> on an overhead sail and the craft could potentially roll over so far
> as to lose power from the sail.
> 
> Possible solutions:
> 
> Have the CG centre of lift point well above the vehicle's centre of
> balance, so that it self rights.
> 
> Have a keel below the vessel to counterbalance. The keel would
> probably need to be an aerofoil shape with some control over its angle
> of attack.

Oh, there's a keel....a grav keel. I'm saying it is a grav 
module running in reverse to provide the same sort of drag 
you'd get in the water. The boat's computer controls the grav 
units that provide lift for the whole craft and drag against 
the ground to counterbalance the pull provided by the wind in 
the sail. That's as far as I'm going toward gearheading. Any 
more effort in that direction, if any, will be up to the 
players. And if they do, *they* will have to figure out 
appropriate handwaves to make it all work out. :)


Eris

From erisred at bellsouth.net  Tue Apr  1 22:35:28 2008
From: erisred at bellsouth.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2008 23:35:28 -0500
Subject: [TML] A Bit of Fluff
In-Reply-To: <5aca9be50804012124x57ffbf87jaf095bcc2c8d8759@mail.gmail.com>
References: <47F2B152.7090505@bellsouth.net>	<1832b5750804012009s1b2d7742hc8d4d5db2ada8134@mail.gmail.com>
	<5aca9be50804012124x57ffbf87jaf095bcc2c8d8759@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47F30D10.6060004@bellsouth.net>

Richard Aiken wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 1, 2008 at 11:09 PM, Michael Jenkins <darvedd at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 02/04/2008, Eris Reddoch <erisred at bellsouth.net> wrote:
>> Possible solutions:
>>
>> Have the CG centre of lift point well above the vehicle's centre of
>> balance, so that it self rights.
>>
>> Have a keel below the vessel to counterbalance. The keel would
>> probably need to be an aerofoil shape with some control over its angle
>> of attack.
> 
> Doubled masts and sails - one set above the "boat" and the other below
> it.  ISTR that the GDW boardgame "Cloudships and Gunboats" dealt with
> this.  Unfortunately, I can't recall exactly what it said and the
> actual game is in storage.

Yep, I thought of that first...I'm an old fan of S1889...but I 
wanted to keep the boats just above the surface, skimming 
along only a meter or two off the ground (for reasons I can't 
go into at this point). So, I used that old handwavium friend 
of Traveller...gravity control...to provide a counterbalancing 
pull under the boat in the opposite direction from the push 
above the boat by the wind in the sail. The computer does most 
of the work, but pilot is in charge of maintaining the balance 
between the keel and the sail.

Eris

From jerry.barrington at gmail.com  Tue Apr  1 22:36:56 2008
From: jerry.barrington at gmail.com (Jerry W Barrington)
Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2008 00:36:56 -0400
Subject: [TML] An odd Idea
In-Reply-To: <5aca9be50804011950l70960bc7i3b17d9f5e31499a7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C41885A8.13252%jerry.barrington@gmail.com>

On 4/1/08 10:50 PM, "Richard Aiken" <raikenclw at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, Apr 1, 2008 at 8:17 PM, Tom Naro <tomnaro at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> But Mason Jars full of jam are good against radar.
> 
> Ouch!  That was positively painful.  Particularly as I must be getting
> slow, since it took a few moments for the pun to sink in . . .

You'd have got it instantly if you were a fan of Spaceballs: The Movie!  :D


From raikenclw at gmail.com  Tue Apr  1 22:55:48 2008
From: raikenclw at gmail.com (Richard Aiken)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 00:55:48 -0400
Subject: [TML] An odd Idea
In-Reply-To: <C41885A8.13252%jerry.barrington@gmail.com>
References: <5aca9be50804011950l70960bc7i3b17d9f5e31499a7@mail.gmail.com>
	<C41885A8.13252%jerry.barrington@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5aca9be50804012155g6828a0v4632525289a51896@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 12:36 AM, Jerry W Barrington
<jerry.barrington at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 4/1/08 10:50 PM, "Richard Aiken" <raikenclw at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Tue, Apr 1, 2008 at 8:17 PM, Tom Naro <tomnaro at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> But Mason Jars full of jam are good against radar.
> >
> > Ouch!  That was positively painful.  Particularly as I must be getting
> > slow, since it took a few moments for the pun to sink in . . .
>
> You'd have got it instantly if you were a fan of Spaceballs: The Movie!  :D

I've seen it twice, but I don't remember space jam.

-- 
Richard Aiken

"Never insult anyone by accident." Robert A. Heinlein

From skaran at bordernet.com.au  Tue Apr  1 23:22:01 2008
From: skaran at bordernet.com.au (Antony Farrell)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 13:22:01 +0800
Subject: [TML] A Bit of Fluff
In-Reply-To: <1832b5750804012009s1b2d7742hc8d4d5db2ada8134@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000001c89481$7fa52300$0300a8c0@skaran>

> Hmm ... land yachts with grav lifts ... nice idea ... but it 
> occurs to me that roll stability could be an issue - a decent 
> push from the wind on an overhead sail and the craft could 
> potentially roll over so far as to lose power from the sail.
> 
> Possible solutions:
> 
> Have the CG centre of lift point well above the vehicle's 
> centre of balance, so that it self rights.
> 
> Have a keel below the vessel to counterbalance. The keel 
> would probably need to be an aerofoil shape with some control 
> over its angle of attack.
> 
> I'm not sure these possibilities provide a complete solution 
> to the problem.
> 
> -- 
> Regards,
> Michael Jenkins

Sounds a lot like the swing keels that some of the maxi yachts in the Sydney
Hobart were fitted with.

Antony

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Checked by AVG. 
Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.3/1354 - Release Date: 1/04/2008
5:38 AM
 


From skaran at bordernet.com.au  Tue Apr  1 23:24:53 2008
From: skaran at bordernet.com.au (Antony Farrell)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 13:24:53 +0800
Subject: [TML] My Domain Down
In-Reply-To: <1832b5750804012009s1b2d7742hc8d4d5db2ada8134@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000101c89481$e8619360$0300a8c0@skaran>

Due to a bit of a Fubar, my Traveller site at skaran.net is temporatily
down. (OK I forgot to renew it duhh!). This has now been rectified but it
may be a little while before everything refreshes.

Antony

No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG. 
Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.3/1354 - Release Date: 1/04/2008
5:38 AM
 


From pare at pieni.net  Wed Apr  2 00:13:30 2008
From: pare at pieni.net (Mikko Parviainen)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 09:13:30 +0300
Subject: [TML] A Bit of Fluff
In-Reply-To: <000001c89481$7fa52300$0300a8c0@skaran>
References: <1832b5750804012009s1b2d7742hc8d4d5db2ada8134@mail.gmail.com>
	<000001c89481$7fa52300$0300a8c0@skaran>
Message-ID: <20080402061330.GC20117@pieni.net>

On Wed, Apr 02, 2008 at 01:22:01PM +0800, Antony Farrell wrote:
> > Hmm ... land yachts with grav lifts ... nice idea ... but it 
> Sounds a lot like the swing keels that some of the maxi yachts in the Sydney
> Hobart were fitted with.

I was reminded of the Henley-on-Todd Regatta held annually in Alice Springs.
It is a regatta in a dry riverbed, and people run with their bottomless 
boats...

We missed it by a few days some years ago and thought that we have to 
attend some time. 

-- 
Mikko Parviainen
http://www.iki.fi/pare/
http://mikkop.livejournal.com/

From skaran at bordernet.com.au  Wed Apr  2 01:28:46 2008
From: skaran at bordernet.com.au (Antony Farrell)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 15:28:46 +0800
Subject: [TML] A Bit of Fluff
In-Reply-To: <000001c89481$7fa52300$0300a8c0@skaran>
Message-ID: <000001c89493$36ea7ea0$0300a8c0@skaran>

Of course another solution to your grav yacht tipping would be the old, but
large gyroscope inside the vessel.

Antony

No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG. 
Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.3/1354 - Release Date: 1/04/2008
5:38 AM
 


From skaran at bordernet.com.au  Wed Apr  2 01:30:32 2008
From: skaran at bordernet.com.au (Antony Farrell)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 15:30:32 +0800
Subject: [TML] A Bit of Fluff
In-Reply-To: <20080402061330.GC20117@pieni.net>
Message-ID: <000101c89493$76fb4060$0300a8c0@skaran>

> I was reminded of the Henley-on-Todd Regatta held annually in 
> Alice Springs. It is a regatta in a dry riverbed, and people 
> run with their bottomless 
> boats...
> 
> We missed it by a few days some years ago and thought that we have to 
> attend some time. 
> 
> -- 
> Mikko Parviainen

I vaguely remember that they were worried one year about having to cancel
the Henley-on-Todd due to the presence of water in the river.

Antony

No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG. 
Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.3/1354 - Release Date: 1/04/2008
5:38 AM
 


From darvedd at gmail.com  Wed Apr  2 03:41:05 2008
From: darvedd at gmail.com (Michael Jenkins)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 17:41:05 +0800
Subject: [TML] A Bit of Fluff
In-Reply-To: <47F30B6D.5050400@bellsouth.net>
References: <47F2B152.7090505@bellsouth.net>
	<1832b5750804012009s1b2d7742hc8d4d5db2ada8134@mail.gmail.com>
	<47F30B6D.5050400@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <1832b5750804020241q63956ea6xde938bc682336b35@mail.gmail.com>

On 02/04/2008, Eris Reddoch <erisred at bellsouth.net> wrote:
> Michael Jenkins wrote:
>  > On 02/04/2008, Eris Reddoch <erisred at bellsouth.net> wrote:
>  >> Here's something a bit different, just a bit of fluff from one
>  >>  of the PBEM's I'm running.
>  >>
>  >> <snip excellent land yacht scenario>
>
> Thanks.
>
>  > Hmm ... land yachts with grav lifts ... nice idea ... but it occurs to
>  > me that roll stability could be an issue - a decent push from the wind
>  > on an overhead sail and the craft could potentially roll over so far
>  > as to lose power from the sail.
>  >
>  > Possible solutions:
>  >
>  > Have the CG centre of lift point well above the vehicle's centre of
>  > balance, so that it self rights.
>  >
>  > Have a keel below the vessel to counterbalance. The keel would
>  > probably need to be an aerofoil shape with some control over its angle
>  > of attack.
>
> Oh, there's a keel....a grav keel. I'm saying it is a grav
>  module running in reverse to provide the same sort of drag
>  you'd get in the water. The boat's computer controls the grav
>  units that provide lift for the whole craft and drag against
>  the ground to counterbalance the pull provided by the wind in
>  the sail. That's as far as I'm going toward gearheading. Any
>  more effort in that direction, if any, will be up to the
>  players. And if they do, *they* will have to figure out
>  appropriate handwaves to make it all work out. :)

I had another idea - you could reduce the CG lift on the windward side
of the vessel, and increase the CG lift on the leeward side, providing
an opposing force to the mast, while still providing the same overall
lift.

-- 
Regards,
Michael Jenkins
--
You cannot deny the humanity of another human being
Without also denying humanity in yourself
--

From jerry.barrington at gmail.com  Wed Apr  2 08:09:08 2008
From: jerry.barrington at gmail.com (Jerry W Barrington)
Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2008 10:09:08 -0400
Subject: [TML] A Bit of Fluff
In-Reply-To: <1832b5750804020241q63956ea6xde938bc682336b35@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C4190BC4.1325E%jerry.barrington@gmail.com>

On 4/2/08 5:41 AM, "Michael Jenkins" <darvedd at gmail.com> wrote:

> I had another idea - you could reduce the CG lift on the windward side
> of the vessel, and increase the CG lift on the leeward side, providing
> an opposing force to the mast, while still providing the same overall
> lift.

All this talk of keels and such is just fine, but...

Lacking the resistance water provides to moving the hull sideways, wouldn't
this thing basically just get blown downwind?


From Greg.Aldridge at domino-uk.com  Wed Apr  2 08:26:50 2008
From: Greg.Aldridge at domino-uk.com (Greg Aldridge)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 15:26:50 +0100
Subject: [TML] A Bit of Fluff
In-Reply-To: <C4190BC4.1325E%jerry.barrington@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D57A23B74D234E44B1570A89F1EACD93011BF680@dps-exchange-uk.dps.local>

> All this talk of keels and such is just fine, but...
> 
> Lacking the resistance water provides to moving the hull 
> sideways, wouldn't this thing basically just get blown downwind?

Ah, you've obviously never studied how the complex aerofoil
shapes of the sails common on 57th century land racing yachts
cleverly avoid that problem.  :)


Greg.

------------------------------------------------------------
"Nature is trying very hard to make us succeed, but nature
does not depend on us. We are not the only experiment."
-- R. Buckminster Fuller





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From andrew.long at mac.com  Wed Apr  2 09:24:49 2008
From: andrew.long at mac.com (Andrew Long)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 16:24:49 +0100
Subject: [TML] correlation is not causation (was Propagation times
	for	news services in Imperium)
In-Reply-To: <47EF729B.26170.19292C4E@shadow.shadowgard.com>
References: <C411B7F0.13190%jerry.barrington@gmail.com>
	<b50d33430803292200g62a07c87od4c31ed2f99257a5@mail.gmail.com>
	<51443C5E-43EA-4CC5-925A-6F85C2618A04@gmail.com>
	<47EF729B.26170.19292C4E@shadow.shadowgard.com>
Message-ID: <D8F6C4A7-BC7E-4983-8157-AEA53617D264@mac.com>


On 30 Mar 2008, at 18:59, shadow at shadowgard.com wrote:
> On 30 Mar 2008 at 1:03, Ross Winn wrote:
>
>> "correlation is not causation" --Adrienne Winn, 2003
>
> It's *much* older than that.
>
> A common example of this are the folks going on about the fact that
> people who carry guns or knives are more apt to get shot or stabbed.
> You mostly see it used to "prove" that doing so is dangerous.
>
> I'm sure that there are folks who think a weapon is a magic wand and
> get intoi trouble they wouldn't if they weren't carrying.
>
> But I'm willing to bet that a more frequent case is where te person
> is carrying because they are already at great risk of being attacked.
> In which case the causation is exactly *backwards* from what most
> folks who point out that statistic are claiming.
>
>
Oh, if only British politicians were reading this list!

Regards, Andy
-- 
Andrew Long
andrew dot long at mac dot com




From johnson at pharmacy.arizona.edu  Wed Apr  2 09:34:02 2008
From: johnson at pharmacy.arizona.edu (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 08:34:02 -0700
Subject: [TML] A Bit of Fluff
In-Reply-To: <20080402061330.GC20117@pieni.net>
References: <1832b5750804012009s1b2d7742hc8d4d5db2ada8134@mail.gmail.com>
	<000001c89481$7fa52300$0300a8c0@skaran>
	<20080402061330.GC20117@pieni.net>
Message-ID: <119A6910-99C3-4B19-A4A5-7584A2D50CD9@pharmacy.arizona.edu>


On Apr 1, 2008, at 11:13 PM, Mikko Parviainen wrote:

> On Wed, Apr 02, 2008 at 01:22:01PM +0800, Antony Farrell wrote:
>>> Hmm ... land yachts with grav lifts ... nice idea ... but it
>> Sounds a lot like the swing keels that some of the maxi yachts in  
>> the Sydney
>> Hobart were fitted with.
>
> I was reminded of the Henley-on-Todd Regatta held annually in Alice  
> Springs.
> It is a regatta in a dry riverbed, and people run with their  
> bottomless
> boats...
>
> We missed it by a few days some years ago and thought that we have to
> attend some time.

Wow, we couldn't do that here, the sand trout would trip them :-)

<http://www.bandersnatch.com/trout.htm>

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From johnson at pharmacy.arizona.edu  Wed Apr  2 09:44:46 2008
From: johnson at pharmacy.arizona.edu (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 08:44:46 -0700
Subject: [TML] An odd Idea
In-Reply-To: <5aca9be50804012155g6828a0v4632525289a51896@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5aca9be50804011950l70960bc7i3b17d9f5e31499a7@mail.gmail.com>
	<C41885A8.13252%jerry.barrington@gmail.com>
	<5aca9be50804012155g6828a0v4632525289a51896@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C7183C18-4EB8-4DC4-B55C-D0338B04985B@pharmacy.arizona.edu>


On Apr 1, 2008, at 9:55 PM, Richard Aiken wrote:

> On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 12:36 AM, Jerry W Barrington
> <jerry.barrington at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 4/1/08 10:50 PM, "Richard Aiken" <raikenclw at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, Apr 1, 2008 at 8:17 PM, Tom Naro <tomnaro at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> But Mason Jars full of jam are good against radar.
>>>
>>> Ouch!  That was positively painful.  Particularly as I must be  
>>> getting
>>> slow, since it took a few moments for the pun to sink in . . .
>>
>> You'd have got it instantly if you were a fan of Spaceballs: The  
>> Movie!  :D
>
> I've seen it twice, but I don't remember space jam.

Crappy "Who Framed Roger Rabbit" style live-action/cartoon pastiche  
with the Warner Bros cartoon crew and Michael Jordan. I can understand  
forgetting it, it wasn't all that memorable.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From johnson at pharmacy.arizona.edu  Wed Apr  2 09:57:41 2008
From: johnson at pharmacy.arizona.edu (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 08:57:41 -0700
Subject: [TML] Get yer Vargr Rock Artiste tee while they're available...
Message-ID: <6D377024-D803-43F3-99D4-6CD6E6B3C8A9@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

For real:

<http://threadless.com/product/1210/Ziggy_Stardog#top>

Threadless makes short runs of t-shirts, so if you want one get one  
now...


-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From erisred at bellsouth.net  Wed Apr  2 14:57:09 2008
From: erisred at bellsouth.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2008 15:57:09 -0500
Subject: [TML] An odd Idea
In-Reply-To: <C7183C18-4EB8-4DC4-B55C-D0338B04985B@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <5aca9be50804011950l70960bc7i3b17d9f5e31499a7@mail.gmail.com>	<C41885A8.13252%jerry.barrington@gmail.com>	<5aca9be50804012155g6828a0v4632525289a51896@mail.gmail.com>
	<C7183C18-4EB8-4DC4-B55C-D0338B04985B@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <47F3F325.6020902@bellsouth.net>

Bruce Johnson wrote:

>> I've seen it twice, but I don't remember space jam.
> 
> Crappy "Who Framed Roger Rabbit" style live-action/cartoon pastiche  
> with the Warner Bros cartoon crew and Michael Jordan. I can understand  
> forgetting it, it wasn't all that memorable.

Actively, forgettable, Bruce. Some athletes can act, Michael 
Jordan can not. Heck, in *that* abomination even Bugs Bunny 
couldn't act! ;)

Eris



From tom.cusworth at googlemail.com  Wed Apr  2 15:02:40 2008
From: tom.cusworth at googlemail.com (Tom Cusworth)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 22:02:40 +0100
Subject: [TML] An odd Idea
In-Reply-To: <47F3F325.6020902@bellsouth.net>
References: <5aca9be50804011950l70960bc7i3b17d9f5e31499a7@mail.gmail.com>
	<C41885A8.13252%jerry.barrington@gmail.com>
	<5aca9be50804012155g6828a0v4632525289a51896@mail.gmail.com>
	<C7183C18-4EB8-4DC4-B55C-D0338B04985B@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
	<47F3F325.6020902@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <4b5cc71a0804021402v7b4cd3d5h32c5e99af15a4ff9@mail.gmail.com>

I can't decide if it's as bad as, or worse than the abomination of
political-correctness that was the Tom and Jerry movie from a few years back
that had the two eternal enemies budged together onscreen as FRIENDS!!

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

-TOm

On 02/04/2008, Eris Reddoch <erisred at bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
> Bruce Johnson wrote:
>
> >> I've seen it twice, but I don't remember space jam.
> >
> > Crappy "Who Framed Roger Rabbit" style live-action/cartoon pastiche
> > with the Warner Bros cartoon crew and Michael Jordan. I can understand
> > forgetting it, it wasn't all that memorable.
>
>
> Actively, forgettable, Bruce. Some athletes can act, Michael
> Jordan can not. Heck, in *that* abomination even Bugs Bunny
> couldn't act! ;)
>
>
> Eris
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML at travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>



-- 
Blessed are the cheapskates, for they shall see god and still have change of
a fiver - Tom Holt, Valhalla.

Want Googlemail? Ask me & I'll invite you!

From ross.winn at gmail.com  Wed Apr  2 15:40:00 2008
From: ross.winn at gmail.com (Ross Winn)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 17:40:00 -0400
Subject: [TML] Mongoose Traveller
Message-ID: <5b0a00340804021440n1fc31fddg8dd01e38a9745a53@mail.gmail.com>

I have just finished my first pass at the new Mongoose Traveller and I
have to say I am very impressed. The rules seem at least as complete
as the LBBs, with the ability to run a fairly complete game in one
volume. It is not complete by modern RPG standards, but few games are
in a single volume in this marketplace. I will say that the foundation
does seem to be there.

Anyway, I just wanted to shout out to my homies.

Ross Winn
ross.winn at gmail.com

From erisred at bellsouth.net  Wed Apr  2 16:13:51 2008
From: erisred at bellsouth.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2008 17:13:51 -0500
Subject: [TML] Mongoose Traveller
In-Reply-To: <5b0a00340804021440n1fc31fddg8dd01e38a9745a53@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5b0a00340804021440n1fc31fddg8dd01e38a9745a53@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47F4051F.9050708@bellsouth.net>

Ross Winn wrote:
> I have just finished my first pass at the new Mongoose Traveller and I
> have to say I am very impressed. The rules seem at least as complete
> as the LBBs, with the ability to run a fairly complete game in one
> volume. It is not complete by modern RPG standards, but few games are
> in a single volume in this marketplace. I will say that the foundation
> does seem to be there.
> 
> Anyway, I just wanted to shout out to my homies.

Are you talking about the short previews that Mongoose has on 
their site, or have you gotten your hands on the *actual* book?

Eris

From shadow at shadowgard.com  Wed Apr  2 16:26:02 2008
From: shadow at shadowgard.com (shadow at shadowgard.com)
Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2008 15:26:02 -0700
Subject: [TML] An odd Idea
In-Reply-To: <C41700B9.13228%jerry.barrington@gmail.com>
References: <47F1842F.4020101@bellsouth.net>,
	<C41700B9.13228%jerry.barrington@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47F3A58A.7160.29A0CAAC@shadow.shadowgard.com>

On 31 Mar 2008 at 20:57, Jerry W Barrington wrote:

> On 3/31/08 8:39 PM, "Eris Reddoch" <erisred at bellsouth.net> wrote:
> 
> > Anthony Jackson wrote:
> >> Evyn MacDude wrote:
> >>> For all those weird systems that we have been trying to explain for
> >>> years.
> >>> 
> >>> What if they are terrestrial moons of gas giants
> >> 
> >> What problem does this solve, exactly? The mystery isn't having a
> >> spaceport on an unpleasant rockball, the mystery is having a large
> >> population on such a lump.
> > 
> > I've put a multi-billion soph pop in a nowhere system in one
> > of the games I'm running right now. The ISS has it listed as
> > having 30,000 and on the rockball that's true, but out in the
> > belt there are another billion folks. What's going on? Well,
> > that billion soph belt is a major industrial site, one of the
> > major supply centers for the Imperial Navy (Army and Marines),
> > in that quadrant of the Spinward Marches. Secret as it was
> > built up and kept secret right through the 5th Frontier War,
> > but now that "Peace in our lifetimes" has broken out and the
> > Imperium is winding down their war effort it is about to stop
> > being a secret.
> 
> I'm not sure about keeping such a place secret.  It would involve shipping
> in a hell of a lot of stuff, not least of which a sizeable fraction of a
> billion people.  And if they're hard at work supplying the military,
> shipping out an enormous amount of their product.  And with all that money
> (their wages) flowing into the system, much of it would need to flow out
> again.  That calls for ongoing shipments of vast quantities of consumer
> goods.
> 
> Doesn't sound like you could hope to keep it secret for months, let alone
> decades.

I refer you to the Tri-Cities in Washington State. They ceased to 
exist for several years during WWII. They grew a lot while they 
"didn't exist". 

Y'see there was this place called "Hanford" that was being built.


--
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow)
shadow at shadowgard dot com



From shadow at shadowgard.com  Wed Apr  2 16:26:01 2008
From: shadow at shadowgard.com (shadow at shadowgard.com)
Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2008 15:26:01 -0700
Subject: [TML] An odd Idea
In-Reply-To: <910920.19893.qm@web53707.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <910920.19893.qm@web53707.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <47F3A589.23333.29A0C935@shadow.shadowgard.com>

On 31 Mar 2008 at 16:58, Tom Naro wrote:

> Knapp magick.crow at gmail.com wrote:
> >>In another, it was a "mis-jump" attractor
> 
> >What is that? I get the idea but have never heard of it.
 
> It follows a theme in classic navel folklore, like the Flying
> Dutchman, the Mary Celeste, the Sargasso Sea, the Bermuda Triangle
> and other ghostly tales. 

Check out "Endless Blue" by Wen Spencer for an interesting take on 
this.

--
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow)
shadow at shadowgard dot com



From johnson at pharmacy.arizona.edu  Wed Apr  2 16:59:34 2008
From: johnson at pharmacy.arizona.edu (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 15:59:34 -0700
Subject: [TML] An odd Idea
In-Reply-To: <47F3A58A.7160.29A0CAAC@shadow.shadowgard.com>
References: <47F1842F.4020101@bellsouth.net>,
	<C41700B9.13228%jerry.barrington@gmail.com>
	<47F3A58A.7160.29A0CAAC@shadow.shadowgard.com>
Message-ID: <6AC3D4C5-BC60-4EED-BD23-7BEED4D09939@pharmacy.arizona.edu>


On Apr 2, 2008, at 3:26 PM, shadow at shadowgard.com wrote:

>>
>> I'm not sure about keeping such a place secret.  It would involve  
>> shipping
>> in a hell of a lot of stuff, not least of which a sizeable fraction  
>> of a
>> billion people.  And if they're hard at work supplying the military,
>> shipping out an enormous amount of their product.  And with all  
>> that money
>> (their wages) flowing into the system, much of it would need to  
>> flow out
>> again.  That calls for ongoing shipments of vast quantities of  
>> consumer
>> goods.
>>
>> Doesn't sound like you could hope to keep it secret for months, let  
>> alone
>> decades.
>
> I refer you to the Tri-Cities in Washington State. They ceased to
> exist for several years during WWII. They grew a lot while they
> "didn't exist".
>
> Y'see there was this place called "Hanford" that was being built.

Yep, and there was another place called Oak Ridge, and another one in  
the desert at Alamagordo. Huge growth, kept secret. The workers knew  
where they were, though.

In Traveller, if you're not privy to the nav system, or can see (and  
chart) the sky AND know your orientation AND have access to a Nav  
database (see the first part) when you jump, you could be *anywhere*  
within jump range. You could be told it's a two,three jump trip, with  
an unspecified jump number. Jump in a J6 crew transport, and three  
jumps puts you within a HUGE volume of space.

Jump out of a huge Naval Depot, jump back in.

Dock in some obscure corner of the system, keep the workers  
underground/inside the asteroid/etc the whole time, and all that money  
and cargo flowing around is completely invisible.

'Nearly a billion people' in a Naval Depot system of tens or hundreds  
of billions are a drop in the bucket.

To the rest of the Depot they're "Area 52" or better still "Strategic  
Sanitation and Janitorial Supply Depot 45/6-003"...Just another big  
ol' warehouse filling up a hollowed out asteroid.

Give the administration and control of the location to a Bwap, and  
include in his orders that it's to be as bureaucratically obscure as  
possible, and it *will* be totally invisible to the rest of the  
Imperium.

Rig the transponders, the traffic control systems, and the defensive  
systems to ignore certain transponder codes, and the rest of the Depot  
will be none the wiser.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From shadow at shadowgard.com  Wed Apr  2 17:04:34 2008
From: shadow at shadowgard.com (shadow at shadowgard.com)
Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2008 16:04:34 -0700
Subject: [TML] A Bit of Fluff
In-Reply-To: <5aca9be50804012124x57ffbf87jaf095bcc2c8d8759@mail.gmail.com>
References: <47F2B152.7090505@bellsouth.net>,
	<1832b5750804012009s1b2d7742hc8d4d5db2ada8134@mail.gmail.com>,
	<5aca9be50804012124x57ffbf87jaf095bcc2c8d8759@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47F3AE92.24620.29C43B7C@shadow.shadowgard.com>

On 2 Apr 2008 at 0:24, Richard Aiken wrote:

> On Tue, Apr 1, 2008 at 11:09 PM, Michael Jenkins <darvedd at gmail.com> wrote:
> > On 02/04/2008, Eris Reddoch <erisred at bellsouth.net> wrote:
> > Possible solutions:
> >
> > Have the CG centre of lift point well above the vehicle's centre of
> > balance, so that it self rights.
> >
> > Have a keel below the vessel to counterbalance. The keel would
> > probably need to be an aerofoil shape with some control over its angle
> > of attack.
> 
> Doubled masts and sails - one set above the "boat" and the other below
> it.  ISTR that the GDW boardgame "Cloudships and Gunboats" dealt with
> this.  Unfortunately, I can't recall exactly what it said and the
> actual game is in storage.

Won't actually work. 

They tried sails on balloons. Doesn't work The ballon just drifts 
with the wind.

Keels on boats only work because they have "grip" on the water. Sail 
powered wagons and ice-boats work by doing so with the ground or the 
ice.

You *can't* steer a sail powered vehicle that has nothing to interact 
with but the wind.

--
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow)
shadow at shadowgard dot com



From shadow at shadowgard.com  Wed Apr  2 17:04:33 2008
From: shadow at shadowgard.com (shadow at shadowgard.com)
Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2008 16:04:33 -0700
Subject: [TML] A Bit of Fluff
In-Reply-To: <D57A23B74D234E44B1570A89F1EACD93011BF680@dps-exchange-uk.dps.local>
References: <C4190BC4.1325E%jerry.barrington@gmail.com>,
	<D57A23B74D234E44B1570A89F1EACD93011BF680@dps-exchange-uk.dps.local>
Message-ID: <47F3AE91.2536.29C438EC@shadow.shadowgard.com>

On 2 Apr 2008 at 15:26, Greg Aldridge wrote:

> > All this talk of keels and such is just fine, but...
> > 
> > Lacking the resistance water provides to moving the hull 
> > sideways, wouldn't this thing basically just get blown downwind?
> 
> Ah, you've obviously never studied how the complex aerofoil
> shapes of the sails common on 57th century land racing yachts
> cleverly avoid that problem.  :)

Airfoils only work if there's air movement relative to the airfoil. 
Which there won't be after the yacht reaches the same speed as the 
air. 


--
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow)
shadow at shadowgard dot com



From johnson at pharmacy.arizona.edu  Wed Apr  2 17:30:57 2008
From: johnson at pharmacy.arizona.edu (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 16:30:57 -0700
Subject: [TML] A Bit of Fluff
In-Reply-To: <47F3AE92.24620.29C43B7C@shadow.shadowgard.com>
References: <47F2B152.7090505@bellsouth.net>,
	<1832b5750804012009s1b2d7742hc8d4d5db2ada8134@mail.gmail.com>,
	<5aca9be50804012124x57ffbf87jaf095bcc2c8d8759@mail.gmail.com>
	<47F3AE92.24620.29C43B7C@shadow.shadowgard.com>
Message-ID: <55DE750A-159A-4D2F-964D-5003278ADD86@pharmacy.arizona.edu>


On Apr 2, 2008, at 4:04 PM, shadow at shadowgard.com wrote:

> Keels on boats only work because they have "grip" on the water. Sail
> powered wagons and ice-boats work by doing so with the ground or the
> ice.
>
> You *can't* steer a sail powered vehicle that has nothing to interact
> with but the wind.

So the grav-sailors have a 'keel', essentially a large skid that can  
be lowered to drag along the ground. This adds some skill to the  
entire thing, the tradeoff of maneuverability versus the increase of  
speed from pulling it up, and a fine control over the grave floats to  
increase or decrease the apparent mass on the keel.

Makes it cool to watch as the yachts race downwind, then dig in to  
make the turns, throwing up huge clouds of dust, spray of gravel, etc.  
Makes being in front going into a curve or a tack very important,  
otherwise you can be blinded...

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From ross.winn at gmail.com  Wed Apr  2 17:49:13 2008
From: ross.winn at gmail.com (Ross Winn)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 19:49:13 -0400
Subject: [TML] Mongoose Traveller
Message-ID: <47f41b7e.0603c00a.0a3a.319f@mx.google.com>

While I am expecting the actual book shortly, I do have a PDF of the full book sent to reviewers. Barring any larger issues in actual play, I am giving it a thumbs up.

Ross Winn

From erisred at bellsouth.net  Wed Apr  2 18:08:51 2008
From: erisred at bellsouth.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2008 19:08:51 -0500
Subject: [TML] Mongoose Traveller
In-Reply-To: <47f41b7e.0603c00a.0a3a.319f@mx.google.com>
References: <47f41b7e.0603c00a.0a3a.319f@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <47F42013.5080107@bellsouth.net>

Ross Winn wrote:
> While I am expecting the actual book shortly, I do have a
> PDF of the full book sent to reviewers. Barring any larger
> issues in actual play, I am giving it a thumbs up.

That's good to hear!  I have a copy on pre-order, probably
won't arrive until near the end of this month though based on
what I've read.  And, yes, Martin, I have your Spinward
Marches on pre-order, too. :)

Eris

From jerry.barrington at gmail.com  Wed Apr  2 18:19:15 2008
From: jerry.barrington at gmail.com (Jerry W Barrington)
Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2008 20:19:15 -0400
Subject: [TML] An odd Idea
In-Reply-To: <6AC3D4C5-BC60-4EED-BD23-7BEED4D09939@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <C4199AC3.13278%jerry.barrington@gmail.com>

On 4/2/08 6:59 PM, "Bruce Johnson" <johnson at pharmacy.arizona.edu> wrote:

> On Apr 2, 2008, at 3:26 PM, shadow at shadowgard.com wrote:
> 
>> I refer you to the Tri-Cities in Washington State. They ceased to
>> exist for several years during WWII. They grew a lot while they
>> "didn't exist".
>> 
>> Y'see there was this place called "Hanford" that was being built.

Given that the *current* population is 4 magnitudes less, and no doubt even
more so back then, it's not a very good comparison.

And data mining has gone a lot further than back then as well.

> Yep, and there was another place called Oak Ridge, and another one in
> the desert at Alamagordo. Huge growth, kept secret. The workers knew
> where they were, though.
> 
> In Traveller, if you're not privy to the nav system, or can see (and
> chart) the sky AND know your orientation AND have access to a Nav
> database (see the first part) when you jump, you could be *anywhere*
> within jump range. You could be told it's a two,three jump trip, with
> an unspecified jump number. Jump in a J6 crew transport, and three
> jumps puts you within a HUGE volume of space.
> 
> Jump out of a huge Naval Depot, jump back in.
> 
> Dock in some obscure corner of the system, keep the workers
> underground/inside the asteroid/etc the whole time, and all that money
> and cargo flowing around is completely invisible.

Absolutely wrong.  Sure, you can hide the location from the people you keep
underground.  But all that cargo flow will be noticeable to the *outside*
world.  And your misdirection jumps still have to refuel *somewhere*.  If
you find someplace that's good for *your* refueling, it's good for others as
well.  Ships will get noticed.

Oh, and if anybody ever takes a shortcut and gets noticed not taking 3 jumps
in and 3 out, that will cut down the possible range.  This is likely to
happen when some emergency arises.

> 'Nearly a billion people' in a Naval Depot system of tens or hundreds
> of billions are a drop in the bucket.
> 
> To the rest of the Depot they're "Area 52" or better still "Strategic
> Sanitation and Janitorial Supply Depot 45/6-003"...Just another big
> ol' warehouse filling up a hollowed out asteroid.
> 
> Give the administration and control of the location to a Bwap, and
> include in his orders that it's to be as bureaucratically obscure as
> possible, and it *will* be totally invisible to the rest of the
> Imperium.
> 
> Rig the transponders, the traffic control systems, and the defensive
> systems to ignore certain transponder codes, and the rest of the Depot
> will be none the wiser.

It's not just Tracon, it's every ship/station in the system that receives
and logs transponder signals.  All it takes is a decent commercial fleet and
some wiz at headquarters mining the data to notice odd ships.  Duplicate a
real ship's codes, and somebody will see it *here* when they already know
it's *there*; create false ones, and somebody will wonder who this unknown
is.  Don't use consistent ones, and they'll see lot's of ships that seem to
disappear into the void and others that come from it; use consistent and you
can be tracked.

There's just too much info in the world, if somebody makes an effort to find
it.  And if nobody would make such an effort, why does it need hidden.

For the effort, you'd be better off just red-zoning a system and not worry
about complete invisibility.


From erisred at bellsouth.net  Wed Apr  2 18:33:19 2008
From: erisred at bellsouth.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2008 19:33:19 -0500
Subject: [TML] A Bit of Fluff
In-Reply-To: <55DE750A-159A-4D2F-964D-5003278ADD86@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <47F2B152.7090505@bellsouth.net>,
	<1832b5750804012009s1b2d7742hc8d4d5db2ada8134@mail.gmail.com>,
	<5aca9be50804012124x57ffbf87jaf095bcc2c8d8759@mail.gmail.com>	<47F3AE92.24620.29C43B7C@shadow.shadowgard.com>
	<55DE750A-159A-4D2F-964D-5003278ADD86@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <47F425CF.5000705@bellsouth.net>

Bruce Johnson wrote:
> On Apr 2, 2008, at 4:04 PM, shadow at shadowgard.com wrote:
> 
>> Keels on boats only work because they have "grip" on the
>> water. Sail powered wagons and ice-boats work by doing so
>> with the ground or the ice.
>> 
>> You *can't* steer a sail powered vehicle that has nothing
>> to interact with but the wind.
> 
> So the grav-sailors have a 'keel', essentially a large skid
> that can be lowered to drag along the ground. This adds
> some skill to the entire thing, the tradeoff of
> maneuverability versus the increase of speed from pulling
> it up, and a fine control over the grave floats to increase
> or decrease the apparent mass on the keel.
> 
> Makes it cool to watch as the yachts race downwind, then
> dig in to make the turns, throwing up huge clouds of dust,
> spray of gravel, etc. Makes being in front going into a
> curve or a tack very important, otherwise you can be
> blinded...

That's what I was going for, except the 'keel' is some sort of 
grav module based thing that puts drag on the surface as 
opposed to lifting up from it (tractor vs repulsor). I like 
the idea of the clouds of dust and throwing up sprays of 
gravel, though. :)

Eris

From kaladorn at gmail.com  Wed Apr  2 21:09:39 2008
From: kaladorn at gmail.com (Tom B)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 23:09:39 -0400
Subject: [TML] An odd Idea
In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20080401134437.058d1d48@po10.mit.edu>
References: <358229.53381.qm@web53701.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<C416FBDB.1321F%jerry.barrington@gmail.com>
	<6.2.3.4.2.20080401134437.058d1d48@po10.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <b50d33430804022009y32804a4apa78160de8ac9968a@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 1, 2008 at 1:45 PM, Peter Brenton <pbrenton at mit.edu> wrote:

> No no, Masons, ancient Solomani in funny hats that do human sacrifice
> where no one can see them.
>

Sigh.

I'm pretty sure human sacrifice was nowhere in the creed of the Brethren.

From kaladorn at gmail.com  Wed Apr  2 21:12:06 2008
From: kaladorn at gmail.com (Tom B)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 23:12:06 -0400
Subject: [TML] Mongoose Traveller
In-Reply-To: <5b0a00340804021440n1fc31fddg8dd01e38a9745a53@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5b0a00340804021440n1fc31fddg8dd01e38a9745a53@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b50d33430804022012v21b3c9f3j84456f400b9c2024@mail.gmail.com>

For those of us who've only just heard of this, how does it differ from CT,
MT, TNE, T4 or T20? Pick your point of reference, I probably have them all
(even GT).

I've been looking for an MT-rules-sans-setting-and-typos or CT++ or
something for a long time. T20 didn't quite hit the spot. T4 certainly
didn't.

And given that we have MT, what do we use for Mongoose Traveller? MgT?

On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 5:40 PM, Ross Winn <ross.winn at gmail.com> wrote:

> I have just finished my first pass at the new Mongoose Traveller and I
> have to say I am very impressed. The rules seem at least as complete
> as the LBBs, with the ability to run a fairly complete game in one
> volume. It is not complete by modern RPG standards, but few games are
> in a single volume in this marketplace. I will say that the foundation
> does seem to be there.
>
> Anyway, I just wanted to shout out to my homies.
>
> Ross Winn
> ross.winn at gmail.com
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML at travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>



-- 
"Now, I go to spread happiness to the rest of the station. It is a terrible
responsibility but I have learned to live with it."
Londo, A Voice in the Wilderness, Part I

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like
administering medicine to the dead." -- Thomas Paine

Thomas Paine

From shadow at shadowgard.com  Wed Apr  2 21:22:13 2008
From: shadow at shadowgard.com (shadow at shadowgard.com)
Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2008 20:22:13 -0700
Subject: [TML] An odd Idea
In-Reply-To: <6AC3D4C5-BC60-4EED-BD23-7BEED4D09939@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <47F1842F.4020101@bellsouth.net>,
	<47F3A58A.7160.29A0CAAC@shadow.shadowgard.com>,
	<6AC3D4C5-BC60-4EED-BD23-7BEED4D09939@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <47F3EAF5.24021.64F15E@shadow.shadowgard.com>

On 2 Apr 2008 at 15:59, Bruce Johnson wrote:

> In Traveller, if you're not privy to the nav system, or can see (and  
> chart) the sky AND know your orientation AND have access to a Nav  
> database (see the first part) when you jump, you could be *anywhere*  
> within jump range. You could be told it's a two,three jump trip, with  
> an unspecified jump number. Jump in a J6 crew transport, and three  
> jumps puts you within a HUGE volume of space.

Seeing the sky doesn't help much unless there's a *very* distinctive 
star visible.

Most bright stars are very close. And the ones that aren't are going 
to blend in. 


--
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow)
shadow at shadowgard dot com



From skaran at bordernet.com.au  Wed Apr  2 23:59:44 2008
From: skaran at bordernet.com.au (Antony Farrell)
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 13:59:44 +0800
Subject: [TML] My Domain Down
In-Reply-To: <000101c89481$e8619360$0300a8c0@skaran>
Message-ID: <000201c8954f$ee0466c0$0300a8c0@skaran>

 Just to let people know that my Traveller site [www.skaran.net] is back up.
Still in need of the update I have been promising for months now (I am
working on it though).

Antony

No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG. 
Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.4/1355 - Release Date: 1/04/2008
5:37 PM
 


From ross.winn at gmail.com  Thu Apr  3 02:16:09 2008
From: ross.winn at gmail.com (Ross Winn)
Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2008 04:16:09 -0400
Subject: [TML] Mongoose Traveller
In-Reply-To: <b50d33430804022012v21b3c9f3j84456f400b9c2024@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5b0a00340804021440n1fc31fddg8dd01e38a9745a53@mail.gmail.com>
	<b50d33430804022012v21b3c9f3j84456f400b9c2024@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47F49249.3080401@gmail.com>

Tom B wrote:
> For those of us who've only just heard of this, how does it differ from CT,
> MT, TNE, T4 or T20? Pick your point of reference, I probably have them all
> (even GT).
>
> I've been looking for an MT-rules-sans-setting-and-typos or CT++ or
> something for a long time. T20 didn't quite hit the spot. T4 certainly
> didn't.
>
> And given that we have MT, what do we use for Mongoose Traveller? MgT?
>   
I think it has the most in common with Classic Traveller. Let me append 
that comment with the statement that I think that as good as they all 
are, every version of Traveller has had some flaw. Hell, I think every 
game has had some flaw, with the possible exception of Spirit of the 
Century.  This game seems to do all of the things that I commonly think 
of as Traveller without the  glaring flaws of the other versions. I 
think that the game is fairly success-oriented, has a decent core 
mechanic, and has the core of a great game. Yes it is a little old 
school as compared to newer more narrative and collaborative systems. 
However I think that is as much a charm of the game, as anything to be 
concerned with.

As for what we call it, I have seen people refer to it as MongTrav, and 
Mongoose Traveller. I don't think it matters.
 To me it is Traveller, plain and simple.

Ross Winn

From martin-j.dougherty at virgin.net  Thu Apr  3 03:02:19 2008
From: martin-j.dougherty at virgin.net (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 10:02:19 +0100
Subject: [TML] Mongoose Traveller
References: <47f41b7e.0603c00a.0a3a.319f@mx.google.com>
	<47F42013.5080107@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <003301c89569$6cc343a0$49491f56@DF8Y032J>


> Ross Winn wrote:
>> While I am expecting the actual book shortly, I do have a
>> PDF of the full book sent to reviewers. Barring any larger
>> issues in actual play, I am giving it a thumbs up.
> 
> That's good to hear!  I have a copy on pre-order, probably
> won't arrive until near the end of this month though based on
> what I've read.  And, yes, Martin, I have your Spinward
> Marches on pre-order, too. :)
> 

I'm hoping to get a copy of that one for free. I hear it's quite good.

From kaladorn at gmail.com  Thu Apr  3 05:45:56 2008
From: kaladorn at gmail.com (Tom B)
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 07:45:56 -0400
Subject: [TML] Mongoose Traveller
In-Reply-To: <47F49249.3080401@gmail.com>
References: <5b0a00340804021440n1fc31fddg8dd01e38a9745a53@mail.gmail.com>
	<b50d33430804022012v21b3c9f3j84456f400b9c2024@mail.gmail.com>
	<47F49249.3080401@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b50d33430804030445r7b5e14dblcaf83548ebfa30b0@mail.gmail.com>

>
> I think it has the most in common with Classic Traveller. Let me append
> that comment with the statement that I think that as good as they all
> are, every version of Traveller has had some flaw. Hell, I think every
> game has had some flaw,


I'm with you in that. Some have more than their share in one form or another
(MT's typos come to mind). But that's a decent generalization.


> with the possible exception of Spirit of the
> Century.  This game seems to do all of the things that I commonly think
> of as Traveller without the  glaring flaws of the other versions.


Particularly, what do you think it does well system-wise? Or what glaring
flaws do you think it addresses (or fails to make)?


> I
> think that the game is fairly success-oriented, has a decent core
> mechanic, and has the core of a great game.


Is it D20 based, 2D6 based, dice-pool based or what? Does it have an
underlying skill system like MT or TNE? (One can argue CT may have had one
underlying but each skill had different rolls and mods) Would I build a
character like you do in GT or would I grow one like you do in CT/MT?


> Yes it is a little old
> school as compared to newer more narrative and collaborative systems.


The thing that I found interesting about MT was there was a lot of detail
there (if you were patient with bollix'd up charts) if you wanted it, but
all you really needed to run a session was 2d6, an idea of how to read or
create a task description (UTP), and maybe a ref's screen for combat data.
Otherwise, you could run it in a fairly story-intensive and player-oriented
fashion, rather than a rules-heavy way. If you wanted to dig, you had some
good bits, but you didn't have to.

I've never really been all that fond of collaborative systems. At least,
with the diverse groups of players I tend to get, I suspect they'd be a
major effort in diplomacy.


> As for what we call it, I have seen people refer to it as MongTrav, and
> Mongoose Traveller. I don't think it matters.
>  To me it is Traveller, plain and simple.


Sure, but when you discuss version specific things, it is nice to have
language to do it. When people talk about MT, most people know what that
abbreviation means. When people talk about CT, the same. MongTrav is longer
than any of the others (TNE, T4, MT, CT, T20, GT) so I suspect something
shorter will evolve... MgT seemed like a good compromise...

Is there any sort of preview or primer available for this version? Or do I
just have to buy the whole thing sight unseen?

Thanks for taking the time to speak on these points.

Thomas B

From jerry.barrington at gmail.com  Thu Apr  3 06:56:45 2008
From: jerry.barrington at gmail.com (Jerry W Barrington)
Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2008 08:56:45 -0400
Subject: [TML] An odd Idea
In-Reply-To: <47F3EAF5.24021.64F15E@shadow.shadowgard.com>
Message-ID: <C41A4C4D.13285%jerry.barrington@gmail.com>

On 4/2/08 11:22 PM, "shadow at shadowgard.com" <shadow at shadowgard.com> wrote:

> On 2 Apr 2008 at 15:59, Bruce Johnson wrote:
> 
>> In Traveller, if you're not privy to the nav system, or can see (and
>> chart) the sky AND know your orientation AND have access to a Nav
>> database (see the first part) when you jump, you could be *anywhere*
>> within jump range. You could be told it's a two,three jump trip, with
>> an unspecified jump number. Jump in a J6 crew transport, and three
>> jumps puts you within a HUGE volume of space.
> 
> Seeing the sky doesn't help much unless there's a *very* distinctive
> star visible.
> 
> Most bright stars are very close. And the ones that aren't are going
> to blend in. 

The sky at Alpha Centauri would like practically identical to here.  Except
Alpha would be gone, and a similar star would be on the opposite side of the
sky.  And it's called Alpha because it's the brightest in the Centaur, thus
fairly noticeable.

The close stars are particularly important, because they will move so much


From darvedd at gmail.com  Thu Apr  3 07:33:33 2008
From: darvedd at gmail.com (Michael Jenkins)
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 21:33:33 +0800
Subject: [TML] An odd Idea
In-Reply-To: <C41A4C4D.13285%jerry.barrington@gmail.com>
References: <47F3EAF5.24021.64F15E@shadow.shadowgard.com>
	<C41A4C4D.13285%jerry.barrington@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1832b5750804030633v2bf00cbt725fbca6cbe8754b@mail.gmail.com>

On 03/04/2008, Jerry W Barrington <jerry.barrington at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 4/2/08 11:22 PM, "shadow at shadowgard.com" <shadow at shadowgard.com> wrote:
>
>  > On 2 Apr 2008 at 15:59, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>  >
>  >> In Traveller, if you're not privy to the nav system, or can see (and
>  >> chart) the sky AND know your orientation AND have access to a Nav
>  >> database (see the first part) when you jump, you could be *anywhere*
>  >> within jump range. You could be told it's a two,three jump trip, with
>  >> an unspecified jump number. Jump in a J6 crew transport, and three
>  >> jumps puts you within a HUGE volume of space.
>  >
>  > Seeing the sky doesn't help much unless there's a *very* distinctive
>  > star visible.
>  >
>  > Most bright stars are very close. And the ones that aren't are going
>  > to blend in.
>
> The sky at Alpha Centauri would like practically identical to here.  Except
>  Alpha would be gone, and a similar star would be on the opposite side of the
>  sky.  And it's called Alpha because it's the brightest in the Centaur, thus
>  fairly noticeable.
>
>  The close stars are particularly important, because they will move so much

Uh ... except the Centauri system has three stars in it, so that would
be very different from the view around Sol!     :)

Stars in the system are Alpha Centauri A and B (which I had thought
were called Alpha and Beta Centauri), and Proxima Centauri.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha_Centauri

Summarising, Alpha Centauri A and B vary between 11.2 and 35.6 AU
apart, and Proxima Centauri is a red dwarf that orbits the other two
at about 13,000 AU. Proxima Centauri would likely be about 4.5
magnitude to a likely terrestrial planet of the other two.

There's a discussion in the article about the possibility of planets,
and the appearance of stars in the sky. Goes into some detail - the
biggest differences would be Sol (of course), and as Jerry indicated,
the close, bright stars of Sirius and Procyon (very different
position) and Altair (different position to a lesser extent).

-- 
Regards,
Michael Jenkins
--
You cannot deny the humanity of another human being
Without also denying humanity in yourself
--

From ajackson at iii.com  Thu Apr  3 10:31:49 2008
From: ajackson at iii.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2008 08:31:49 -0800
Subject: [TML] An odd Idea
In-Reply-To: <b50d33430804022009y32804a4apa78160de8ac9968a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <358229.53381.qm@web53701.mail.re2.yahoo.com>	<C416FBDB.1321F%jerry.barrington@gmail.com>	<6.2.3.4.2.20080401134437.058d1d48@po10.mit.edu>
	<b50d33430804022009y32804a4apa78160de8ac9968a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47F50675.7060007@iii.com>

Tom B wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 1, 2008 at 1:45 PM, Peter Brenton <pbrenton at mit.edu> wrote:
> 
>> No no, Masons, ancient Solomani in funny hats that do human sacrifice
>> where no one can see them.
>>
> 
> Sigh.
> 
> I'm pretty sure human sacrifice was nowhere in the creed of the Brethren.

The best thing about secret societies is that outsiders can invent 
whatever scurrilous rumors they want, and the members can't dispel those 
rumors without revealing secrets.

From erisred at bellsouth.net  Thu Apr  3 10:54:23 2008
From: erisred at bellsouth.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2008 11:54:23 -0500
Subject: [TML] Mongoose Traveller
In-Reply-To: <b50d33430804030445r7b5e14dblcaf83548ebfa30b0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5b0a00340804021440n1fc31fddg8dd01e38a9745a53@mail.gmail.com>	<b50d33430804022012v21b3c9f3j84456f400b9c2024@mail.gmail.com>	<47F49249.3080401@gmail.com>
	<b50d33430804030445r7b5e14dblcaf83548ebfa30b0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47F50BBF.1080000@bellsouth.net>

Tom B wrote:
> Sure, but when you discuss version specific things, it is nice to have
> language to do it. When people talk about MT, most people know what that
> abbreviation means. When people talk about CT, the same. MongTrav is longer
> than any of the others (TNE, T4, MT, CT, T20, GT) so I suspect something
> shorter will evolve... MgT seemed like a good compromise...

RTT = Rikki Tikki Traveller is what I've said all along that 
we should christen Mongoose's version. :)

Yes, if you go to http://mongoosepublishing.com and click on 
the Traveller link up top you can find some free downloads. 
Three previews, a character sheet, starchart and a ship 
design...at least that's what was up there the other day. If 
you'd gotten in earlier you could have downloaded a beta copy 
of the rules, but I think that is off the site now.

Eris

From darvedd at gmail.com  Thu Apr  3 12:22:57 2008
From: darvedd at gmail.com (Michael Jenkins)
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 02:22:57 +0800
Subject: [TML] Mongoose Traveller
In-Reply-To: <47F50BBF.1080000@bellsouth.net>
References: <5b0a00340804021440n1fc31fddg8dd01e38a9745a53@mail.gmail.com>
	<b50d33430804022012v21b3c9f3j84456f400b9c2024@mail.gmail.com>
	<47F49249.3080401@gmail.com>
	<b50d33430804030445r7b5e14dblcaf83548ebfa30b0@mail.gmail.com>
	<47F50BBF.1080000@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <1832b5750804031122u6718c2f0x1e4caf1884f206cf@mail.gmail.com>

On 04/04/2008, Eris Reddoch <erisred at bellsouth.net> wrote:
> Tom B wrote:
>  > Sure, but when you discuss version specific things, it is nice to have
>  > language to do it. When people talk about MT, most people know what that
>  > abbreviation means. When people talk about CT, the same. MongTrav is longer
>  > than any of the others (TNE, T4, MT, CT, T20, GT) so I suspect something
>  > shorter will evolve... MgT seemed like a good compromise...
>
> RTT = Rikki Tikki Traveller is what I've said all along that
>  we should christen Mongoose's version. :)
>
>  Yes, if you go to http://mongoosepublishing.com and click on
>  the Traveller link up top you can find some free downloads.
>  Three previews, a character sheet, starchart and a ship
>  design...at least that's what was up there the other day. If
>  you'd gotten in earlier you could have downloaded a beta copy
>  of the rules, but I think that is off the site now.

<mode: humour, ar, ar>

I like it!

Although it involves a reference to Rudyard Kipling's "The Jungle
Book", so is not really a serious candidate.

Besides, what would happen if someone developed "Real Time Traveller"?      :)

</mode>

<mode: serious, hmm>

The problem with MgT is that Mg could just as easily be Mega and not
Mongoose - to someone who wasn't already familiar with MT for
MegaTraveller, it is not distinctive and risks confusion. MnT or MsT
would be more distinctive to represent MongooseTraveller but not
MegaTraveller, even if less intuitive by itself.

</mode>

-- 
Regards,
Michael Jenkins
--
You cannot deny the humanity of another human being
Without also denying humanity in yourself
--

From magick.crow at gmail.com  Thu Apr  3 13:08:52 2008
From: magick.crow at gmail.com (Knapp)
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 21:08:52 +0200
Subject: [TML] Mongoose Traveller
In-Reply-To: <1832b5750804031122u6718c2f0x1e4caf1884f206cf@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5b0a00340804021440n1fc31fddg8dd01e38a9745a53@mail.gmail.com>
	<b50d33430804022012v21b3c9f3j84456f400b9c2024@mail.gmail.com>
	<47F49249.3080401@gmail.com>
	<b50d33430804030445r7b5e14dblcaf83548ebfa30b0@mail.gmail.com>
	<47F50BBF.1080000@bellsouth.net>
	<1832b5750804031122u6718c2f0x1e4caf1884f206cf@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f495db580804031208k1f208f84le0a42755f1ca6124@mail.gmail.com>

>  The problem with MgT is that Mg could just as easily be Mega and not
>  Mongoose - to someone who wasn't already familiar with MT for
>  MegaTraveller, it is not distinctive and risks confusion. MnT or MsT
>  would be more distinctive to represent MongooseTraveller but not
>  MegaTraveller, even if less intuitive by itself.
>  Regards,
>  Michael Jenkins

Just go with GT, for Goose Traveller.
-- 
Douglas E Knapp
http://sf-journey-creations.wikispot.org/Front_Page

From redroach at gmail.com  Thu Apr  3 13:39:13 2008
From: redroach at gmail.com (Thomas Vickers)
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 14:39:13 -0500
Subject: [TML] Mongoose Traveller
In-Reply-To: <f495db580804031208k1f208f84le0a42755f1ca6124@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5b0a00340804021440n1fc31fddg8dd01e38a9745a53@mail.gmail.com>
	<b50d33430804022012v21b3c9f3j84456f400b9c2024@mail.gmail.com>
	<47F49249.3080401@gmail.com>
	<b50d33430804030445r7b5e14dblcaf83548ebfa30b0@mail.gmail.com>
	<47F50BBF.1080000@bellsouth.net>
	<1832b5750804031122u6718c2f0x1e4caf1884f206cf@mail.gmail.com>
	<f495db580804031208k1f208f84le0a42755f1ca6124@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <fb4d67290804031239q2f49f728mbb2c851d814fe8b3@mail.gmail.com>

Already taken? GT = Gurps Traveller?

TV

From sablemage at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Apr  3 13:30:11 2008
From: sablemage at yahoo.co.uk (Andy Slack)
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 20:30:11 +0100
Subject: [TML] Mongoose Traveller
In-Reply-To: <f495db580804031208k1f208f84le0a42755f1ca6124@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5b0a00340804021440n1fc31fddg8dd01e38a9745a53@mail.gmail.com>	<b50d33430804022012v21b3c9f3j84456f400b9c2024@mail.gmail.com>	<47F49249.3080401@gmail.com>	<b50d33430804030445r7b5e14dblcaf83548ebfa30b0@mail.gmail.com>	<47F50BBF.1080000@bellsouth.net>	<1832b5750804031122u6718c2f0x1e4caf1884f206cf@mail.gmail.com>
	<f495db580804031208k1f208f84le0a42755f1ca6124@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000801c895c1$25c344c0$7149ce40$@co.uk>

I think GURPS Traveller already has that one...
Andy

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-bounces at travellercentral.com [mailto:tml-
> bounces at travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Knapp
> Sent: 03 April 2008 20:09
> To: The Traveller Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [TML] Mongoose Traveller
> 
> >  The problem with MgT is that Mg could just as easily be Mega and not
> >  Mongoose - to someone who wasn't already familiar with MT for
> >  MegaTraveller, it is not distinctive and risks confusion. MnT or MsT
> >  would be more distinctive to represent MongooseTraveller but not
> >  MegaTraveller, even if less intuitive by itself.
> >  Regards,
> >  Michael Jenkins
> 
> Just go with GT, for Goose Traveller.
> --
> Douglas E Knapp
> http://sf-journey-creations.wikispot.org/Front_Page
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML at travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 
> 
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.22.5/1357 - Release Date:
> 03/04/2008 10:48




From magick.crow at gmail.com  Thu Apr  3 14:44:10 2008
From: magick.crow at gmail.com (Knapp)
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 22:44:10 +0200
Subject: [TML] Mongoose Traveller
In-Reply-To: <000801c895c1$25c344c0$7149ce40$@co.uk>
References: <5b0a00340804021440n1fc31fddg8dd01e38a9745a53@mail.gmail.com>
	<b50d33430804022012v21b3c9f3j84456f400b9c2024@mail.gmail.com>
	<47F49249.3080401@gmail.com>
	<b50d33430804030445r7b5e14dblcaf83548ebfa30b0@mail.gmail.com>
	<47F50BBF.1080000@bellsouth.net>
	<1832b5750804031122u6718c2f0x1e4caf1884f206cf@mail.gmail.com>
	<f495db580804031208k1f208f84le0a42755f1ca6124@mail.gmail.com>
	<000801c895c1$25c344c0$7149ce40$@co.uk>
Message-ID: <f495db580804031344q243e7a6cn2d9aa9f55327d936@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 3, 2008 at 9:30 PM, Andy Slack <sablemage at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> I think GURPS Traveller already has that one...
>  Andy
>
>
>
>  > -----Original Message-----
>  > From: tml-bounces at travellercentral.com [mailto:tml-
>  > bounces at travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Knapp
>  > Sent: 03 April 2008 20:09
>  > To: The Traveller Mailing List
>  > Subject: Re: [TML] Mongoose Traveller
>  >
>  > >  The problem with MgT is that Mg could just as easily be Mega and not
>  > >  Mongoose - to someone who wasn't already familiar with MT for
>  > >  MegaTraveller, it is not distinctive and risks confusion. MnT or MsT
>  > >  would be more distinctive to represent MongooseTraveller but not
>  > >  MegaTraveller, even if less intuitive by itself.
>  > >  Regards,
>  > >  Michael Jenkins
>  >
>  > Just go with GT, for Goose Traveller.

The word mongoose is derived from the Marathi word mangus. (wiki stuff all)
So if GT is taken how about MT? No, that is mega traveller.
Banded Mongoose,
FAMILY HERPESTIDAE,
    * Subfamily Herpestinae,
 Mungos mungo

HT?

-- 
Douglas E Knapp
http://sf-journey-creations.wikispot.org/Front_Page

From sburchett at gmail.com  Thu Apr  3 15:01:51 2008
From: sburchett at gmail.com (Steve Burchett)
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 16:01:51 -0500
Subject: [TML] Mongoose Traveller
In-Reply-To: <f495db580804031344q243e7a6cn2d9aa9f55327d936@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5b0a00340804021440n1fc31fddg8dd01e38a9745a53@mail.gmail.com>
	<b50d33430804022012v21b3c9f3j84456f400b9c2024@mail.gmail.com>
	<47F49249.3080401@gmail.com>
	<b50d33430804030445r7b5e14dblcaf83548ebfa30b0@mail.gmail.com>
	<47F50BBF.1080000@bellsouth.net>
	<1832b5750804031122u6718c2f0x1e4caf1884f206cf@mail.gmail.com>
	<f495db580804031208k1f208f84le0a42755f1ca6124@mail.gmail.com>
	<000801c895c1$25c344c0$7149ce40$@co.uk>
	<f495db580804031344q243e7a6cn2d9aa9f55327d936@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3cf5ea650804031401y91182e0j9780307f4f70a5f7@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 3, 2008 at 3:44 PM, Knapp <magick.crow at gmail.com> wrote:

> The word mongoose is derived from the Marathi word mangus. (wiki stuff
> all)
> Banded Mongoose,
> FAMILY HERPESTIDAE,
>    * Subfamily Herpestinae,
>  Mungos mungo
>

I thought for sure you were going to say BM! ;)  (commonly used for Bowel
Movement)

No reflection on the quality of the product, though, I pre-ordered it today.

Steve :D

From bjmurray.halfjack at gmail.com  Thu Apr  3 15:07:13 2008
From: bjmurray.halfjack at gmail.com (Brad Murray)
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 14:07:13 -0700
Subject: [TML] Mongoose Traveller
In-Reply-To: <3cf5ea650804031401y91182e0j9780307f4f70a5f7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5b0a00340804021440n1fc31fddg8dd01e38a9745a53@mail.gmail.com>
	<b50d33430804022012v21b3c9f3j84456f400b9c2024@mail.gmail.com>
	<47F49249.3080401@gmail.com>
	<b50d33430804030445r7b5e14dblcaf83548ebfa30b0@mail.gmail.com>
	<47F50BBF.1080000@bellsouth.net>
	<1832b5750804031122u6718c2f0x1e4caf1884f206cf@mail.gmail.com>
	<f495db580804031208k1f208f84le0a42755f1ca6124@mail.gmail.com>
	<000801c895c1$25c344c0$7149ce40$@co.uk>
	<f495db580804031344q243e7a6cn2d9aa9f55327d936@mail.gmail.com>
	<3cf5ea650804031401y91182e0j9780307f4f70a5f7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <889263490804031407j1af9da8bl353c823066e38276@mail.gmail.com>

I think YATV will do for this and all future variations.

-- 
Brad Murray (halfjack)

From magick.crow at gmail.com  Thu Apr  3 15:17:53 2008
From: magick.crow at gmail.com (Knapp)
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 23:17:53 +0200
Subject: [TML] Plants, animals and characters
Message-ID: <f495db580804031417n64ff9c3fna89258bbbc7df96c@mail.gmail.com>

While thinking about my new game design I found something I had never
thought about before.

Seeds are eggs. Plants and animals are the same thing. A chicken egg
is nothing but a seed for a chicken. Live birth is just hatching the
egg in a safe place. The only other variable is the amount of care
given by the parents.

Animals live in one of 3 places. Air, water or dirt. Some live on the
boundaries of these and some live with all three.

Habitat can be broken down a few ways: roughness (flat beach vs rough
mountains), amount of water (swamp frog VS desert frog vs forest
frog), Altitude, chemical environment (type of dirt/rock, water or
air) temperature, ecosystem (some frogs breed only in one plant that
holds water).

Eating, I need some help here but the roots of the energy system are:
the sun, geothermal and ???? After that it is all about eating others
and how fast, big and or resistant to eating the others are and you
are.

All this also showed a big hole in the CT Animal system. There are no parasites.

So then characters are just life forms with a bit more info about them
and thus don't need much added to make them.

It would seem you can make a really complex eco system with just these
bits of data. You would start with a bunch of random one celled life
forms and what they ate as base eaters and then start making bigger
and bigger (sometimes smaller eating bigger too) things to eat them
with each basic habitat. Also some data here about breeding rates,
speed of running and efficiency of the life form.

So thoughts anyone? What did I miss?
-- 
Douglas E Knapp
http://sf-journey-creations.wikispot.org/Front_Page

From jerry.barrington at gmail.com  Thu Apr  3 17:42:05 2008
From: jerry.barrington at gmail.com (Jerry W Barrington)
Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2008 19:42:05 -0400
Subject: [TML] Plants, animals and characters
In-Reply-To: <f495db580804031417n64ff9c3fna89258bbbc7df96c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C41AE38D.13298%jerry.barrington@gmail.com>

On 4/3/08 5:17 PM, "Knapp" <magick.crow at gmail.com> wrote:

> While thinking about my new game design I found something I had never
> thought about before.
> 
> Seeds are eggs. Plants and animals are the same thing. A chicken egg
> is nothing but a seed for a chicken. Live birth is just hatching the
> egg in a safe place. The only other variable is the amount of care
> given by the parents.

Yes.  Many plants even have "sex".

> Animals live in one of 3 places. Air, water or dirt. Some live on the
> boundaries of these and some live with all three.
>
> Habitat can be broken down a few ways: roughness (flat beach vs rough
> mountains), amount of water (swamp frog VS desert frog vs forest
> frog), Altitude, chemical environment (type of dirt/rock, water or
> air) temperature, ecosystem (some frogs breed only in one plant that
> holds water).
> 
> Eating, I need some help here but the roots of the energy system are:
> the sun, geothermal and ???? After that it is all about eating others
> and how fast, big and or resistant to eating the others are and you
> are.

Solar is by for the primary.  Geothermal is only available in very limited
areas, and those areas can die out over time.  I really don't know over any
other *known* sources.

> All this also showed a big hole in the CT Animal system. There are no
> parasites.

Hadn't noticed that.  But I didn't go over then animal rules in great
detail.

> So then characters are just life forms with a bit more info about them
> and thus don't need much added to make them.
> 
> It would seem you can make a really complex eco system with just these
> bits of data. You would start with a bunch of random one celled life
> forms and what they ate as base eaters and then start making bigger
> and bigger (sometimes smaller eating bigger too) things to eat them
> with each basic habitat. Also some data here about breeding rates,
> speed of running and efficiency of the life form.

At the small end of the size scale, the eaters tend to be bigger than the
eaten.  But of course, there are exceptions.  At the large end, it's a lot
more variable (lions eating bigger buffalo *and* smaller gazelles, etc).

Part of breeding rate lies in how much food (energy) you can take in, versus
how much it takes to produce an offspring.  Although even that has limits
(the best fed women are generally not going to produce a babies in much less
than 9 months average).

> So thoughts anyone? What did I miss?


From GDWGAMES at aol.com  Thu Apr  3 18:13:32 2008
From: GDWGAMES at aol.com (GDWGAMES at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 20:13:32 EDT
Subject: [TML] Parasites, and an OT Computer question
Message-ID: <bf8.28cdb137.3526ccac@aol.com>

>> All this also showed a big hole in the CT Animal system. There are no 
> parasites.
> 
Parasites are a subset of Grazers.

Off Topic Computer question: What the heck is "CCAPP"? Every time I close 
down the machine, I get a message that "CCAPP" is not responding, and I risk 
losing any unsaved data if I shut it down. 

My machine is showing increasing mental problems lately, and I'm hoping this 
is not something fatal . . . 

please respond to gdwgames at aol.com so as not to tie up precious TML 
bandwidth.

LKW




**************
Planning your summer road trip? Check out AOL Travel Guides.
    
  (http://travel.aol.com/travel-guide/united-states?ncid=aoltrv00030000000016)


From shadow at shadowgard.com  Thu Apr  3 18:13:44 2008
From: shadow at shadowgard.com (shadow at shadowgard.com)
Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2008 17:13:44 -0700
Subject: [TML] weird crossover idea
Message-ID: <47F51048.6387.32BB702@shadow.shadowgard.com>

I was working my way thru a fiction websoite when I hit a fanfic set 
in the Highlander universe (the TV series).

And I got this evil idea. What if the Immortals exist in the 
Traveller universe.

Gee, no *wonder* swords are permitted. And you have to wonder if it's 
actually anagathics that some of the nobles are using. :-)

BTW, holding a challenge fight in Jump is a *really* bad idea. :-)
--
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow)
shadow at shadowgard dot com



From garry.e.ward at worldnet.att.net  Thu Apr  3 18:16:06 2008
From: garry.e.ward at worldnet.att.net (Garry Ward)
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 20:16:06 -0400
Subject: [TML] weird crossover idea
References: <47F51048.6387.32BB702@shadow.shadowgard.com>
Message-ID: <000901c895e9$16237440$cc2e4b0c@YOURFEDDA97C02>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: <shadow at shadowgard.com>
To: "the Traveller Mailing List" <tml at travellercentral.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 8:13 PM
Subject: [TML] weird crossover idea


>I was working my way thru a fiction websoite when I hit a fanfic set 
> in the Highlander universe (the TV series).
> 
> And I got this evil idea. What if the Immortals exist in the 
> Traveller universe.

Without getting into Highlander there is always Heinlein's Lazarus Long....

Garry
> 
> Gee, no *wonder* swords are permitted. And you have to wonder if it's 
> actually anagathics that some of the nobles are using. :-)
> 
> BTW, holding a challenge fight in Jump is a *really* bad idea. :-)
> --
> Leonard Erickson (aka shadow)
> shadow at shadowgard dot com
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML at travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>


From rancke at diku.dk  Thu Apr  3 19:02:11 2008
From: rancke at diku.dk (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 03:02:11 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [TML] Propagation times for news services in Imperium
In-Reply-To: <mailman.312.1206311081.21732.tml@travellercentral.com>
References: <mailman.312.1206311081.21732.tml@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0804040218530.6738@ask.diku.dk>

Because of the unwieldy size the TML Digest is distributed at these days, 
I've begun deleting them either unread or after just browsing the content 
list. I've also begun ignoring them for weeks at a time. Which is why I 
only spotted this subject line today. As I've done a lot of work on that 
particular subject, the subject caught my attention. Hence this belated 
response.

Peter Brenton wrote:

>Is there a table somewhere that describes the number of days required
>for TNS items to reach, for example, Mora from Capital?  I imagine a
>grid that has origins and destinations along the top and side, and
>the number of days required for a J-4 network message to reach that
>destination.
>
>I'm putting together a number of news bulletins (scavenged from SJG's
>TNS and other sources) but its important to make sure of the date on
>the news item is "001-1110" and its origin is Terra/Solomani Rim then
>the date its received is consistent with the time it takes the
>message to travel to that destination.

It's pretty easy to put together such a list. You have to do a bit of work 
to set it up, but you only need to do it once. Basically, work out routes 
from each sector capital to Capital. Think of them as trunk lines. Then 
work out routes from the world of origin of a message to the nearest trunk 
line.

You may or may not want to add a few trunk lines between adjacent sectors 
that bypass Capital.


Here are the routes I've worked out myself. They're not going to be any 
use to you if you believe in the jump-4 X-boat network (IMTU the trunk 
lines all use jump-6), but they'll give you the idea.


News:
Warinir-Capital ca. 90 parsecs (18 weeks)
Sol-Muan Gwi two jumps (2 weeks)
Shululsish/Alderamin-Mua Gwi, 15 parsecs, 3 jumps (3 weeks)
Shululsish-Capital, 117 parsecs (24 weeks)
Muan Gwi-Capital 120 parsecs, 20-24 jumps (24 weeks)
Capital-Vland 59 parsecs, 11 jumps (11 weeks)
[Vland-Mora: 72 parsecs, 12-15 jumps]
Vland-Deneb 66 parsecs, 11-13 jumps (13 weeks)
Deneb-Mora: 20 parsecs, 4 jumps (4 weeks)
Mora- Rhylanor: 2 jumps (2 weeks)
Rhylanor-Regina: 2 jumps (2 weeks)
Vland-Regina: 94 parsecs, 16-19 jumps]
Capital-Regina: 32 jumps (32 weeks)

          Glisten   Lanth   Lunion    Mora     Regina    Rhylanor     Trin

Glisten     -     Lunion      3        4       Mora        Mora        2
Lanth    Lunion      -        2        3         2           2         4
Lunion      3        2        -        2       Lanth         2         3
Mora        4        3        2        -     Rhylanor        2         3
Regina    Mora       2     Lanth   Rhylanor      -           2 
Rhylanor
Rhylanor  Mora       2        2        2         2           -         4
Trin        2        4        3        3     Rhylanor        4         -

Aramis-Rhylanor: 2
Frenzie-Regina: 2
Iderati-Lunion: 4
Jewell-Regina: 2

Jerry W Barrington replied:

>And all the program can tell you is how many jumps.  You'll have to make
>assumptions about how fast "a jump" is.  What I means is, jumps are 168+/-17
>hours.  To be reliable, the network needs a "tick-rate".  I would suggest
>192 hours (8 days, maximum jump time plus 3.2 hours).  If the boats jump
>*exactly* every 168 hours, half of the news will miss the jump because the
>incoming boat happens to be slow.  Even worse, boats that arrive late will
>leave late, making them more likely to miss the *next* rendezvous,

ISTR a description of the X-boat network that said that on major routes 
one boat departed every six hours on the average. If you just calculate 
with 7.25 days per jump, the jump variations get lost in the big picture.

>Of course, all this assumes 2 boats on each link of the network, jumping
>back and forth, plus sufficient spares to cover breakdowns perfectly.  Does
>the Xboat network even *attempt* this level of service to every node?  Or
>just along the main trunks (between domain or sector capitals)?

I don't think they'd attempt that along the minor links.

>Using <http://www.travellermap.com/>, I count 35 jumps just from Regina to
>Voskhod (just on the trailing end of the Corridor), a distance of 84 hexes
>(net result: 2.4 parsecs/jump).  Most legs of the Xboat network are J2 or
>J3, some are even J1!  And it meanders all over the place.  Distance divided
>by 4 is a *very* bad estimate.

Well, you can start by assuming that any X-boat node that is four parsecs 
from another gets a direct X-boat link even if the map shows an 
intermediate node (the same goes for doglegs). X-boat routes aren't 
railroad tracks. They're programs entered into jump-4 drives.

And Peter Brenton wrote:

>Yep, right in the Rebellion Sourcebook.  Times for news to travel by X-boat;
>
>Core-Vland   70  days
>Core-Regina  196 Days
>Core-Dlan 112 Days
>Core-Terra 179 Days
>
>Good enough for Naasirka work.

If you really believe in such an inefficient network, and if you DON'T 
believe that the high-population sector capitals have jump-6 passenger 
ships jumping between them, then I suppose it is good enough. Otherwise 
you're facing a situation where electronic newspapers (and gossip) carried 
by those passenger liners will outrun X-boat news by almost 100%.

Meanwhile, there's canonical evidence that Navy couriers forward at least 
some reports to the TAS.

My take on why the X-boat system is so hopelessly obsolete and inefficient 
even by jump-4 standards is that it was made redundant back when the IN 
acquired jump-5. Ever since then the 'NavyNet' has out-performed the 
X-boats.


And Jerry W Barrington wrote:

> By "Core", I assume they you Capital, since all the measures are from Core
> out to distant places.  Capital to Terra is 131 hexes (again, checked at
> <http://www.travellermap.com/>).  With no delays or deviation from straight
> line path or jumps less than 5 parsecs, J5 would take 189 days.  179 days
> would require J6, at least.  Since the Xboat route is by no means straight,
> nor does it relay on J6 paths, Xboats cannot achieve even this rate.  It
> would take a dedicated J6 courier with special care for the route to pull
> off 179 days!  Probably with pre-arranged fueling depots.

Theoretically an organization with money to burn could actually do it even 
faster. By sending off more than one courier at the same time, the 
information arrives at the next link in the time it takes the fastest of 
them to get there. So if one does the jump in 160 hours and the other in 
174 hours, the next set of couriers can jump after 160 hours.



       Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
      rancke at diku.dk
------------
The very act of writing a Traveller book closes the doors on
possibilities. _Any_ game supplement does that, assuming the publisher
cares about internal consistency.

Robert Prior


From aurictech at cox.net  Thu Apr  3 19:19:57 2008
From: aurictech at cox.net (John Groth)
Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2008 18:19:57 -0700
Subject: [TML] Propagation times for news services in Imperium
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0804040218530.6738@ask.diku.dk>
References: <mailman.312.1206311081.21732.tml@travellercentral.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0804040218530.6738@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <47F5823D.7060404@cox.net>

Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen wrote:

> And Jerry W Barrington wrote:
> 
>> By "Core", I assume they you Capital, since all the measures are from Core
>> out to distant places.  Capital to Terra is 131 hexes (again, checked at
>> <http://www.travellermap.com/>).  With no delays or deviation from straight
>> line path or jumps less than 5 parsecs, J5 would take 189 days.  179 days
>> would require J6, at least.  Since the Xboat route is by no means straight,
>> nor does it relay on J6 paths, Xboats cannot achieve even this rate.  It
>> would take a dedicated J6 courier with special care for the route to pull
>> off 179 days!  Probably with pre-arranged fueling depots.
> 
> Theoretically an organization with money to burn could actually do it even 
> faster. By sending off more than one courier at the same time, the 
> information arrives at the next link in the time it takes the fastest of 
> them to get there. So if one does the jump in 160 hours and the other in 
> 174 hours, the next set of couriers can jump after 160 hours.

Of course, given enough couriers deliberately misjumping (a.k.a. the 
Ludowick Gambit), you can move information at up to J36.  The cost gets 
rather prohibitive rather quickly, though.... ;-)

Longtime TML members may recall AuricTech's _Vaya Con Dios_-class 
courier, optimized for the Ludowick Gambit (very inexpensive, with 
emergency low berths, plenty of fuel for the backup power plant [to 
enhance crew survival] and automated high-power commo systems [to allow 
for eventual rescue]).

From tim at little-possums.net  Thu Apr  3 20:08:42 2008
From: tim at little-possums.net (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 13:08:42 +1100
Subject: [TML] An odd Idea
In-Reply-To: <C41A4C4D.13285%jerry.barrington@gmail.com>
References: <47F3EAF5.24021.64F15E@shadow.shadowgard.com>
	<C41A4C4D.13285%jerry.barrington@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20080404020842.GA7258@soprano.little-possums.net>

On Thu, Apr 03, 2008 at 08:56:45AM -0400, Jerry W Barrington wrote:
> The sky at Alpha Centauri would like practically identical to here.

Not really.  Many of the brighter stars would be shifted relative to
others by at least a few degrees, and most constellations would be
distorted enough to be recognizable only in hindsight to a casual
stargazer.

Still, an experienced naked-eye astronomer would be able to identify
the more distant landmark objects for orientation and match up
intermediate stars to get a pretty decent idea of where they are.  In
a Traveller setting even a number of people with more casual interest
may well be familiar with some features of the sky from different
systems.  I would certainly expect quite a few from a population of a
billion.


- Tim

From shadow at shadowgard.com  Thu Apr  3 21:13:13 2008
From: shadow at shadowgard.com (shadow at shadowgard.com)
Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2008 20:13:13 -0700
Subject: [TML] Plants, animals and characters
In-Reply-To: <f495db580804031417n64ff9c3fna89258bbbc7df96c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f495db580804031417n64ff9c3fna89258bbbc7df96c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47F53A59.26423.3D0B1EF@shadow.shadowgard.com>

On 3 Apr 2008 at 23:17, Knapp wrote:

> While thinking about my new game design I found something I had never
> thought about before.
> 
> Seeds are eggs. Plants and animals are the same thing. A chicken egg
> is nothing but a seed for a chicken. Live birth is just hatching the
> egg in a safe place. The only other variable is the amount of care
> given by the parents.
> 
> Animals live in one of 3 places. Air, water or dirt. Some live on the
> boundaries of these and some live with all three.
> 
> Habitat can be broken down a few ways: roughness (flat beach vs rough
> mountains), amount of water (swamp frog VS desert frog vs forest
> frog), Altitude, chemical environment (type of dirt/rock, water or
> air) temperature, ecosystem (some frogs breed only in one plant that
> holds water).

Actually, try looking up "biome". That's a combo of climate and a few 
other things. And it does generally work for classifying places 
organisms live.

 
> Eating, I need some help here but the roots of the energy system are:
> the sun, geothermal and ???? After that it is all about eating others
> and how fast, big and or resistant to eating the others are and you
> are.

There apparently are some bacteria that can get some energy directly 
from hard radiation. Don't know of any that survive exclusively on 
it.


--
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow)
shadow at shadowgard dot com



From raikenclw at gmail.com  Thu Apr  3 21:24:36 2008
From: raikenclw at gmail.com (Richard Aiken)
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 23:24:36 -0400
Subject: [TML] Mongoose Traveller
In-Reply-To: <889263490804031407j1af9da8bl353c823066e38276@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5b0a00340804021440n1fc31fddg8dd01e38a9745a53@mail.gmail.com>
	<47F49249.3080401@gmail.com>
	<b50d33430804030445r7b5e14dblcaf83548ebfa30b0@mail.gmail.com>
	<47F50BBF.1080000@bellsouth.net>
	<1832b5750804031122u6718c2f0x1e4caf1884f206cf@mail.gmail.com>
	<f495db580804031208k1f208f84le0a42755f1ca6124@mail.gmail.com>
	<000801c895c1$25c344c0$7149ce40$@co.uk>
	<f495db580804031344q243e7a6cn2d9aa9f55327d936@mail.gmail.com>
	<3cf5ea650804031401y91182e0j9780307f4f70a5f7@mail.gmail.com>
	<889263490804031407j1af9da8bl353c823066e38276@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5aca9be50804032024g34a3d8c1oa610f98e4cfc811c@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 3, 2008 at 5:07 PM, Brad Murray <bjmurray.halfjack at gmail.com> wrote:
> I think YATV will do for this and all future variations.

For "Young Ass Traveller Version"?

-- 
Richard Aiken

"Never insult anyone by accident." Robert A. Heinlein

From rancke at diku.dk  Thu Apr  3 21:43:15 2008
From: rancke at diku.dk (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 05:43:15 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [TML] Correlation is not causation
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0804040539030.26073@ask.diku.dk>

Leonard Erickson writes:

>On 30 Mar 2008 at 1:03, Ross Winn wrote:
>
>>"correlation is not causation" --Adrienne Winn, 2003
>
>It's *much* older than that.

Indeed. _Post hoc non ergo propter hoc_. ;-)


Hans

From robocon at ozemail.com.au  Thu Apr  3 21:53:01 2008
From: robocon at ozemail.com.au (Robert O'Connor)
Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2008 14:53:01 +1100
Subject: [TML] Plants, animals and characters
Message-ID: <47F5A61D.7020701@ozemail.com.au>

Douglas Knapp wrote:
> Eating, I need some help here but the roots of the energy system are:
> the sun, geothermal and ????

Chemautotrophism - energy for respiration comes from the breakdown of 
'inorganic' compounds.

> Also some data here about breeding rates,
> speed of running and efficiency of the life form.

Allometric concepts are useful here.
It has been shown that a variety of parameters - metabolic rate, 
reproduction rate, etc. scale with body mass.

The book 'Scaling: Why Is Animal Size So Important?' by Scmidt-Nielsen 
is a useful introductory reference to the subject.

> So thoughts anyone? What did I miss?

Have a look at the following link for a few things to think about.
http://www.freelancetraveller.com/features/science/xbio101/index.html

Leonard mentioned biomes, which are discussed in part here:
http://www.freelancetraveller.com/features/science/xbio101/xbio4.html


Robert O'Connor
medico, gamer

From robocon at ozemail.com.au  Thu Apr  3 22:18:31 2008
From: robocon at ozemail.com.au (Robert O'Connor)
Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2008 15:18:31 +1100
Subject: [TML] Plants, animals and characters
Message-ID: <47F5AC17.1080307@ozemail.com.au>

Douglas,

If you have the spare cash or know someone who has the book, Chapter 6 
of GURPS:Space 4e is another good overview for generating alien animals.


Robert O'Connor
medico, gamer

From bjmurray.halfjack at gmail.com  Thu Apr  3 22:35:30 2008
From: bjmurray.halfjack at gmail.com (Brad Murray)
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 21:35:30 -0700
Subject: [TML] Mongoose Traveller
In-Reply-To: <5aca9be50804032024g34a3d8c1oa610f98e4cfc811c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5b0a00340804021440n1fc31fddg8dd01e38a9745a53@mail.gmail.com>
	<b50d33430804030445r7b5e14dblcaf83548ebfa30b0@mail.gmail.com>
	<47F50BBF.1080000@bellsouth.net>
	<1832b5750804031122u6718c2f0x1e4caf1884f206cf@mail.gmail.com>
	<f495db580804031208k1f208f84le0a42755f1ca6124@mail.gmail.com>
	<000801c895c1$25c344c0$7149ce40$@co.uk>
	<f495db580804031344q243e7a6cn2d9aa9f55327d936@mail.gmail.com>
	<3cf5ea650804031401y91182e0j9780307f4f70a5f7@mail.gmail.com>
	<889263490804031407j1af9da8bl353c823066e38276@mail.gmail.com>
	<5aca9be50804032024g34a3d8c1oa610f98e4cfc811c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <889263490804032135g33e22118h4a316061363336d8@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 3, 2008 at 8:24 PM, Richard Aiken <raikenclw at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 3, 2008 at 5:07 PM, Brad Murray <bjmurray.halfjack at gmail.com> wrote:
>  > I think YATV will do for this and all future variations.
>
>  For "Young Ass Traveller Version"?

"Yet Another"

-- 
Brad Murray (halfjack)

From shadow at shadowgard.com  Thu Apr  3 23:01:53 2008
From: shadow at shadowgard.com (shadow at shadowgard.com)
Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2008 22:01:53 -0700
Subject: [TML] weird crossover idea
In-Reply-To: <000901c895e9$16237440$cc2e4b0c@YOURFEDDA97C02>
References: <47F51048.6387.32BB702@shadow.shadowgard.com>,
	<000901c895e9$16237440$cc2e4b0c@YOURFEDDA97C02>
Message-ID: <47F553D1.11372.4348E92@shadow.shadowgard.com>

On 3 Apr 2008 at 20:16, Garry Ward wrote:

> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: <shadow at shadowgard.com>
> To: "the Traveller Mailing List" <tml at travellercentral.com>
> Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 8:13 PM
> Subject: [TML] weird crossover idea
> 
> 
> >I was working my way thru a fiction websoite when I hit a fanfic set 
> > in the Highlander universe (the TV series).
> > 
> > And I got this evil idea. What if the Immortals exist in the 
> > Traveller universe.
> 
> Without getting into Highlander there is always Heinlein's Lazarus Long....

Yeah, but you *can* just shoot him. 



--
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow)
shadow at shadowgard dot com



From shadow at shadowgard.com  Thu Apr  3 23:01:53 2008
From: shadow at shadowgard.com (shadow at shadowgard.com)
Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2008 22:01:53 -0700
Subject: [TML] Plants, animals and characters
In-Reply-To: <C41AE38D.13298%jerry.barrington@gmail.com>
References: <f495db580804031417n64ff9c3fna89258bbbc7df96c@mail.gmail.com>,
	<C41AE38D.13298%jerry.barrington@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47F553D1.28750.4348D1B@shadow.shadowgard.com>

On 3 Apr 2008 at 19:42, Jerry W Barrington wrote:

> On 4/3/08 5:17 PM, "Knapp" <magick.crow at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > Eating, I need some help here but the roots of the energy system are:
> > the sun, geothermal and ???? After that it is all about eating others
> > and how fast, big and or resistant to eating the others are and you
> > are.
> 
> Solar is by for the primary.  Geothermal is only available in very limited
> areas, and those areas can die out over time.  I really don't know over any
> other *known* sources.

I just recalled that a *lot* of bacteria get energy from processing 
things like sulfide ores into sulfates.

Not going to work for large animals, but bacteria will do 
chemosynthesis in the presence of the like sort of ores. 

Do note that it's the chemicals *not* the heat that are the basis of 
the ecosystems around deep ocean vents.


--
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow)
shadow at shadowgard dot com



From infojunky at ceecom.net  Fri Apr  4 00:23:22 2008
From: infojunky at ceecom.net (Evyn MacDude)
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 23:23:22 -0700
Subject: [TML] Mongoose Traveller
In-Reply-To: <47F49249.3080401@gmail.com>
References: <5b0a00340804021440n1fc31fddg8dd01e38a9745a53@mail.gmail.com>
	<b50d33430804022012v21b3c9f3j84456f400b9c2024@mail.gmail.com>
	<47F49249.3080401@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3F0E0876-696A-4687-9504-A465D75F0B51@ceecom.net>


On  Apr03 08, at 01:16, Ross Winn wrote:

> As for what we call it, I have seen people refer to it as MongTrav,  
> and
> Mongoose Traveller. I don't think it matters.
>  To me it is Traveller, plain and simple.

That has been my p.o.v. for all editions. But for identifying between  
editions
I prefer TM though I might be convinced to combine it with T5 and use  
the
short hand of T5M.

Evyn MacDude
infojunky at ceecom.net

"When a meeting, or part thereof, is held under the Chatham House  
Rule, participants are free to use the information received, but  
neither the identity nor the affiliation of the speaker(s), nor that  
of any other participant, may be revealed"






From jerry.barrington at gmail.com  Fri Apr  4 01:03:44 2008
From: jerry.barrington at gmail.com (Jerry W Barrington)
Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2008 03:03:44 -0400
Subject: [TML] Propagation times for news services in Imperium
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0804040218530.6738@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <C41B4B10.132B1%jerry.barrington@gmail.com>

On 4/3/08 9:02 PM, "Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen" <rancke at diku.dk> wrote:

> ISTR a description of the X-boat network that said that on major routes
> one boat departed every six hours on the average. If you just calculate
> with 7.25 days per jump, the jump variations get lost in the big picture.

Hmm.  If they really depart every 6 hours, it would be quite a common
occurrence for Ship #2 to arrive before Ship #1!  In fact, it will happen
just over 1/3 of the time.

Actually, any 2 ships that leave within 33.6 hours stand a chance of
swapping en route.


From jerry.barrington at gmail.com  Fri Apr  4 01:08:12 2008
From: jerry.barrington at gmail.com (Jerry W Barrington)
Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2008 03:08:12 -0400
Subject: [TML] Propagation times for news services in Imperium
In-Reply-To: <47F5823D.7060404@cox.net>
Message-ID: <C41B4C1C.132B3%jerry.barrington@gmail.com>

On 4/3/08 9:19 PM, "John Groth" <aurictech at cox.net> wrote:

> Of course, given enough couriers deliberately misjumping (a.k.a. the
> Ludowick Gambit), you can move information at up to J36.  The cost gets
> rather prohibitive rather quickly, though.... ;-)
> 
> Longtime TML members may recall AuricTech's _Vaya Con Dios_-class
> courier, optimized for the Ludowick Gambit (very inexpensive, with
> emergency low berths, plenty of fuel for the backup power plant [to
> enhance crew survival] and automated high-power commo systems [to allow
> for eventual rescue]).

If you end up a parsec or more away from any stars, "eventual" can mean a
very long time.  At the least, 3+ years.  And I don't think you could fully
automate the commo system.  The power to be sure an omni directional
transmitter can be picked up from several light years would be exorbitant,
so you'd need directional ones.  Since you need to carry a finite number of
them, somebody has to decide where to point them.


From garry.e.ward at worldnet.att.net  Fri Apr  4 05:21:02 2008
From: garry.e.ward at worldnet.att.net (Garry Ward)
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 07:21:02 -0400
Subject: [TML] weird crossover idea
References: <47F51048.6387.32BB702@shadow.shadowgard.com>,
	<000901c895e9$16237440$cc2e4b0c@YOURFEDDA97C02>
	<47F553D1.11372.4348E92@shadow.shadowgard.com>
Message-ID: <000701c89645$fd315e40$492f4b0c@YOURFEDDA97C02>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: <shadow at shadowgard.com>
To: "The Traveller Mailing List" <tml at travellercentral.com>
Sent: Friday, April 04, 2008 1:01 AM
Subject: Re: [TML] weird crossover idea


> On 3 Apr 2008 at 20:16, Garry Ward wrote:
>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: <shadow at shadowgard.com>
>> To: "the Traveller Mailing List" <tml at travellercentral.com>
>> Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 8:13 PM
>> Subject: [TML] weird crossover idea
>>
>>
>> >I was working my way thru a fiction websoite when I hit a fanfic set
>> > in the Highlander universe (the TV series).
>> >
>> > And I got this evil idea. What if the Immortals exist in the
>> > Traveller universe.
>>
>> Without getting into Highlander there is always Heinlein's Lazarus 
>> Long....
>
> Yeah, but you *can* just shoot him.

True, but he's far less likely to hesitate about shooting you first.

Garry
>
>
>
> --
> Leonard Erickson (aka shadow)
> shadow at shadowgard dot com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML at travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 



From kaladorn at gmail.com  Fri Apr  4 05:53:44 2008
From: kaladorn at gmail.com (Tom B)
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 07:53:44 -0400
Subject: [TML] Mongoose Traveller
In-Reply-To: <3F0E0876-696A-4687-9504-A465D75F0B51@ceecom.net>
References: <5b0a00340804021440n1fc31fddg8dd01e38a9745a53@mail.gmail.com>
	<b50d33430804022012v21b3c9f3j84456f400b9c2024@mail.gmail.com>
	<47F49249.3080401@gmail.com>
	<3F0E0876-696A-4687-9504-A465D75F0B51@ceecom.net>
Message-ID: <b50d33430804040453w1b9a7be5w50defff6d80fbc71@mail.gmail.com>

It's a challenge when we run out of space in our set of acronyms.

Thanks for the links to Mongoose stuff. I'm going for a look.

I hadn't thought of MgT as being MegaTrav but it fits. Darn. MGT could work,
but it could still be confuzzled.

TM would work. Or T(M). Is it really T5?

On Fri, Apr 4, 2008 at 2:23 AM, Evyn MacDude <infojunky at ceecom.net> wrote:

>
> On  Apr03 08, at 01:16, Ross Winn wrote:
>
> > As for what we call it, I have seen people refer to it as MongTrav,
> > and
> > Mongoose Traveller. I don't think it matters.
> >  To me it is Traveller, plain and simple.
>
> That has been my p.o.v. for all editions. But for identifying between
> editions
> I prefer TM though I might be convinced to combine it with T5 and use
> the
> short hand of T5M.
>
> Evyn MacDude
> infojunky at ceecom.net
>
> "When a meeting, or part thereof, is held under the Chatham House
> Rule, participants are free to use the information received, but
> neither the identity nor the affiliation of the speaker(s), nor that
> of any other participant, may be revealed"
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML at travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>



-- 
"Now, I go to spread happiness to the rest of the station. It is a terrible
responsibility but I have learned to live with it."
Londo, A Voice in the Wilderness, Part I

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like
administering medicine to the dead." -- Thomas Paine

Thomas Paine

From garry.e.ward at worldnet.att.net  Fri Apr  4 06:57:40 2008
From: garry.e.ward at worldnet.att.net (Garry Ward)
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 08:57:40 -0400
Subject: [TML] Mongoose Traveller
References: <5b0a00340804021440n1fc31fddg8dd01e38a9745a53@mail.gmail.com><b50d33430804022012v21b3c9f3j84456f400b9c2024@mail.gmail.com><47F49249.3080401@gmail.com><3F0E0876-696A-4687-9504-A465D75F0B51@ceecom.net>
	<b50d33430804040453w1b9a7be5w50defff6d80fbc71@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000b01c89653$7a207aa0$0a364b0c@YOURFEDDA97C02>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tom B" <kaladorn at gmail.com>
To: "The Traveller Mailing List" <tml at travellercentral.com>
Sent: Friday, April 04, 2008 7:53 AM
Subject: Re: [TML] Mongoose Traveller


> It's a challenge when we run out of space in our set of acronyms.
>
> Thanks for the links to Mongoose stuff. I'm going for a look.
>
> I hadn't thought of MgT as being MegaTrav but it fits. Darn. MGT could 
> work,
> but it could still be confuzzled.
>
> TM would work. Or T(M). Is it really T5?

How about RCT for Rehashed Classic Traveller?

Garry
>
> On Fri, Apr 4, 2008 at 2:23 AM, Evyn MacDude <infojunky at ceecom.net> wrote:
>
>>
>> On  Apr03 08, at 01:16, Ross Winn wrote:
>>
>> > As for what we call it, I have seen people refer to it as MongTrav,
>> > and
>> > Mongoose Traveller. I don't think it matters.
>> >  To me it is Traveller, plain and simple.
>>
>> That has been my p.o.v. for all editions. But for identifying between
>> editions
>> I prefer TM though I might be convinced to combine it with T5 and use
>> the
>> short hand of T5M.
>>
>> Evyn MacDude
>> infojunky at ceecom.net
>>
>> "When a meeting, or part thereof, is held under the Chatham House
>> Rule, participants are free to use the information received, but
>> neither the identity nor the affiliation of the speaker(s), nor that
>> of any other participant, may be revealed"
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TML mailing list
>> TML at travellercentral.com
>> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>>
>
>
>
> -- 
> "Now, I go to spread happiness to the rest of the station. It is a 
> terrible
> responsibility but I have learned to live with it."
> Londo, A Voice in the Wilderness, Part I
>
> "To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like
> administering medicine to the dead." -- Thomas Paine
>
> Thomas Paine
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML at travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 



From infojunky at ceecom.net  Fri Apr  4 09:39:32 2008
From: infojunky at ceecom.net (Evyn MacDude)
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 08:39:32 -0700
Subject: [TML] Mongoose Traveller
In-Reply-To: <b50d33430804040453w1b9a7be5w50defff6d80fbc71@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5b0a00340804021440n1fc31fddg8dd01e38a9745a53@mail.gmail.com>
	<b50d33430804022012v21b3c9f3j84456f400b9c2024@mail.gmail.com>
	<47F49249.3080401@gmail.com>
	<3F0E0876-696A-4687-9504-A465D75F0B51@ceecom.net>
	<b50d33430804040453w1b9a7be5w50defff6d80fbc71@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6937160C-6D63-425C-A283-BC3CC4E60559@ceecom.net>


On  Apr04 08, at 04:53, Tom B wrote:

> It's a challenge when we run out of space in our set of acronyms.
>
> Thanks for the links to Mongoose stuff. I'm going for a look.
>
> I hadn't thought of MgT as being MegaTrav but it fits. Darn. MGT  
> could work,
> but it could still be confuzzled.
>
> TM would work. Or T(M). Is it really T5?

Kinda, Marc is releasing T5 on CD at the same time TM is being  
released by
Mongoose.

I have to say Eris's suggestion of RTT amuses me to no end, and pays
homage to one of Traveller's and classic sf inspirations Kippling.

I would like to note that a 2 or 3 letter acronym is superior to some  
of the
suggestions out there IMHO.

Evyn MacDude
infojunky at ceecom.net

"When a meeting, or part thereof, is held under the Chatham House  
Rule, participants are free to use the information received, but  
neither the identity nor the affiliation of the speaker(s), nor that  
of any other participant, may be revealed"






From erisred at bellsouth.net  Fri Apr  4 10:44:23 2008
From: erisred at bellsouth.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2008 11:44:23 -0500
Subject: [TML] Mongoose Traveller
In-Reply-To: <6937160C-6D63-425C-A283-BC3CC4E60559@ceecom.net>
References: <5b0a00340804021440n1fc31fddg8dd01e38a9745a53@mail.gmail.com>	<b50d33430804022012v21b3c9f3j84456f400b9c2024@mail.gmail.com>	<47F49249.3080401@gmail.com>	<3F0E0876-696A-4687-9504-A465D75F0B51@ceecom.net>	<b50d33430804040453w1b9a7be5w50defff6d80fbc71@mail.gmail.com>
	<6937160C-6D63-425C-A283-BC3CC4E60559@ceecom.net>
Message-ID: <47F65AE7.7080104@bellsouth.net>

Evyn MacDude wrote:
> On  Apr04 08, at 04:53, Tom B wrote:
> 
>> It's a challenge when we run out of space in our set of acronyms.
>>
>> Thanks for the links to Mongoose stuff. I'm going for a look.
>>
>> I hadn't thought of MgT as being MegaTrav but it fits. Darn. MGT  
>> could work,
>> but it could still be confuzzled.
>>
>> TM would work. Or T(M). Is it really T5?
> 
> Kinda, Marc is releasing T5 on CD at the same time TM is being  
> released by
> Mongoose.
> 
> I have to say Eris's suggestion of RTT amuses me to no end, and pays
> homage to one of Traveller's and classic sf inspirations Kippling.
> 
> I would like to note that a 2 or 3 letter acronym is superior to some  
> of the
> suggestions out there IMHO.

I don't think I was the first person to suggest RTT, but I 
thought of it very quickly after reading that Mongoose was 
going to be doing a version of Traveller. And anyone that 
doesn't get the RT (Rikki Tikki) needs to perform a bit of 
googlefu. :) I contend that anything done by a company called 
Mongoose Publishing should expect to be compared to Kipling's 
brave little creature.

Mongoose's Traveller, and I'm going to refer to it as RTT, is 
not T5. RTT is more of a CT, updated, reloaded, fixed (and 
let's hope not rebroken) than T5 which is much bigger and much 
more complex. My understanding was that RTT is Traveller-Lite 
vs T5 which I'd call Traveller-Complex. RTT is aimed at 
bringing in new players to Traveller and providing fast, fun, 
games and T5 is aimed at existing Traveller players and 
provides all the detail that gearheads of any stripe would 
want.  I strongly suspect (can't say for sure not having seen 
any of T5 recently) they will have different character 
generation systems, different task systems, different most 
everything...but the end results of all the systems *might* be 
compatible one with the other. At least, such compatibility 
was once a goal.

As for when T5 is coming out. It's been missing deadlines for 
sometime now. On http://www.farfuture.net Marc still has a 
March 31, 2008 drop dead final date for T5's release...that 
was last Monday. I suspect he missed that deadline, too. Well, 
I guess T5 will be done when it is done.

Eris

From jerry.barrington at gmail.com  Fri Apr  4 11:30:05 2008
From: jerry.barrington at gmail.com (Jerry W Barrington)
Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2008 13:30:05 -0400
Subject: [TML] Mongoose Traveller
In-Reply-To: <6937160C-6D63-425C-A283-BC3CC4E60559@ceecom.net>
Message-ID: <C41BDDDD.132C7%jerry.barrington@gmail.com>

On 4/4/08 11:39 AM, "Evyn MacDude" <infojunky at ceecom.net> wrote:

> 
> On  Apr04 08, at 04:53, Tom B wrote:
> 
>> It's a challenge when we run out of space in our set of acronyms.
>> 
>> Thanks for the links to Mongoose stuff. I'm going for a look.
>> 
>> I hadn't thought of MgT as being MegaTrav but it fits. Darn. MGT
>> could work,
>> but it could still be confuzzled.
>> 
>> TM would work. Or T(M). Is it really T5?
> 
> Kinda, Marc is releasing T5 on CD at the same time TM is being
> released by Mongoose.

And I understand Mongoose's is supposed to be a subset of Marc's...

> I have to say Eris's suggestion of RTT amuses me to no end, and pays
> homage to one of Traveller's and classic sf inspirations Kippling.
> 
> I would like to note that a 2 or 3 letter acronym i