From magick.crow at gmail.com  Tue Jan  1 02:07:46 2008
From: magick.crow at gmail.com (Knapp)
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 10:07:46 +0100
Subject: [TML] Noncanonical TU 3D.
In-Reply-To: <5f542a9e0712312155i4e100dc3n4aaf3ae196f3f496@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5f542a9e0712312155i4e100dc3n4aaf3ae196f3f496@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f495db580801010107n3f91a9f2j59f20771bdd2077e@mail.gmail.com>

On Jan 1, 2008 6:55 AM, Thad Coons <tocoons at gmail.com> wrote:

>   Just for fun, I've been working up a non-standard version of a
> Travelleresqe universe. Instead of using the usual 3rd Imperium setting,
> I've been playing with a 3-d version set in the vicinity of Earth, at the
> very beginning of system expansion, using the best information about real
> stars and their locations  I can get.
>   I've been using Jim Valassikos old Starmap program, and somewhere I
> found
> a lengthy list of near stars, that I've been plugging in, and plotting
> short
> jump routes. I've found it most interesting to work with fractional jump
> numbers, because a small difference  in jump ability can make  a huge
> difference in the destinations reachable from a given point.
>    One thing I've noted with interest is that the vagaries of interstellar
> distribution can make places that are fairly close in real distance a long
> ways away via jump.  As an an extreme but interesting examile, the third
> closest star to earth, Wolf 359, is just out of jump range at my present
> level. It is also possible to reach it going a long way around of about 20
> jumps). A modest increase in jump ability can create huge changes in jump
> routes, where long routes are bypassed on the one hand, but on the other
> hand, small stars that were uninteresting in their own right can become
> gateways to whole new clusters.
>    At present, I'm working on adding real data on star classifications (So
> far, all I have is location), so I can use these to develop planetary
> systems. Really attractive habitable systems are rather few and far
> between:  There are a lot of  M-class stars that are good for nothing much
> besides places to refuel, but sometimes, that's enough reason for a
> colony.
>   Another thing is that I'm trying to "grow" colonies rather than
> plant them from scratch. Most of  my Traveller stuff is in a box halfway
> across the country and consists of a hodgepodge of TNE and T4 and GT, so
> figuring out a good way of doing it is going to be a challenge.
>    I haven't set up a web page for my TU yet, but I can do it if anyone is
> interested in seeing how I work this out. I think there may be a couple of
> other listmembers doing this kind of thing, too, but I haven't looked them
> up.
>

I would love to here more. I wanted to go this way with my computer game but
gave up do to the amount of work it means to get something real and good so
I went with the creationists route. I would love to see what you come up
with. I might even be fun to add it to my computer universe at some point if
you would like to donate it.
Douglas E Knapp

From tocoons at gmail.com  Tue Jan  1 03:06:40 2008
From: tocoons at gmail.com (Thad Coons)
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 05:06:40 -0500
Subject: [TML] Noncanonical TU 3D.
In-Reply-To: <C39F4AD9.117D0%jursamaj@yahoo.com>
References: <5f542a9e0712312155i4e100dc3n4aaf3ae196f3f496@mail.gmail.com>
	<C39F4AD9.117D0%jursamaj@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5f542a9e0801010206s17708912lbc1c700de8edbe89@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/1/08, Jerry W Barrington <jursamaj at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> This is indeed a popular topic.  We've discussed elements of it
> sporadically
> the past few months, and I'm sure the archive has a lot more.
>
> I have a set of files listing stars within 50, 100, and 1000 LY.  The
> biggest one has (if I recall), over 70,000 stars.  But there will be a lot
> of dimmer stars missing out that far, lots of those M dwarf stars.  That's
> a
> problem with any star catalog.  And it has a lot more than just positional
> data.  Would that help you out?
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML at travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>


    Well, there is a limit to what you can observe from earth. Still, trying
to detail 70,000 stars out to 1000 light years is far more than I need or
can use.  The source file I'm using has 8500 odd stars out to 150 LY (A
respectable fraction of the entire Third Imperium)  and does have
information on the classification as well as other notes. I have 80 odd
systems within a 20 LY radius mapped,  I don't think I could handle a bigger
piece of the universe than will fit within 50 LY, so while I appreciate the
offer, it's not necessary.   The scouts and colonists (and industrialists,
and the traders,  and the politicians)  in my TU are going to be plenty busy
for a long time to come.
    GT: First In had some very nice system design rules, but tryng to tweak
it so it would generate a world with a given UPP was a real headache, and a
complete system gave me more information than I could use.  Trying to use
Heaven and Earth to automate the process was another kind of headache. But
if I'm not trying to match a pregenerated UPP and can start with an
uninhabited system, those should give results that are good enough for what
I want.

From jursamaj at yahoo.com  Tue Jan  1 04:21:32 2008
From: jursamaj at yahoo.com (Jerry W Barrington)
Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2008 06:21:32 -0500
Subject: [TML] Noncanonical TU 3D.
In-Reply-To: <5f542a9e0801010206s17708912lbc1c700de8edbe89@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C39F8C6C.117D7%jursamaj@yahoo.com>

On 1/1/08 5:06 AM, "Thad Coons" <tocoons at gmail.com> wrote:

>   Well, there is a limit to what you can observe from earth. Still, trying
> to detail 70,000 stars out to 1000 light years is far more than I need or
> can use.  The source file I'm using has 8500 odd stars out to 150 LY (A
> respectable fraction of the entire Third Imperium)  and does have
> information on the classification as well as other notes. I have 80 odd
> systems within a 20 LY radius mapped,  I don't think I could handle a bigger
> piece of the universe than will fit within 50 LY, so while I appreciate the
> offer, it's not necessary.   The scouts and colonists (and industrialists,
> and the traders,  and the politicians)  in my TU are going to be plenty busy
> for a long time to come.
>   GT: First In had some very nice system design rules, but tryng to tweak
> it so it would generate a world with a given UPP was a real headache, and a
> complete system gave me more information than I could use.  Trying to use
> Heaven and Earth to automate the process was another kind of headache. But
> if I'm not trying to match a pregenerated UPP and can start with an
> uninhabited system, those should give results that are good enough for what
> I want.

Hmm.  The set I have is part of the Hipparcos data.  It has 4981 systems out
to 150 LY (434 systems within 50 LY, 59 in 20 LY), although of course a lot
of those are binary and multiple systems.  What data set are you using?  I
might like a copy of yours.  :)

First In seems to use a very similar system to the old classic Traveller
system of world building.  I prefer GURPS 4Ed:Space.  You randomly determine
the age and initial mass of a star.  That tells you what the star should
look like now.  But it's sort of limited, only making stars of .10 to 2.00
Solar mass.  This month, I've been researching the current best estimate of
the initial mass function, which extends from Brown Dwarfs several times
Jupiter's mass, up to stars about 150 Solar mass.  Plugging those into this
program I found tells you how the star evolves over time.  The G4:Space
tables are rather simplified.

With those things, I can fill whatever volume of space I want with stars of
all sort, and generate planets for them.  I don't plan on forcing worlds to
match pre-rolled UWPs.  I see real star data mainly as useful to see if my
generator looks like reality.  :)


From threeeyesmcgurk at hotmail.com  Tue Jan  1 05:09:19 2008
From: threeeyesmcgurk at hotmail.com (alan hume)
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 12:09:19 +0000
Subject: [TML] Happy New Year!
In-Reply-To: <C39F3560.117C7%jursamaj@yahoo.com>
References: <C39F3560.117C7%jursamaj@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BAY101-W40059458230B343161D7BDAE510@phx.gbl>




Happy New Year from Edinburgh (Greenwich Mean Time)


_________________________________________________________________
Telly addicts unite!
http://www.searchgamesbox.com/tvtown.shtml

From webmaster at travellercentral.com  Tue Jan  1 12:07:42 2008
From: webmaster at travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 12:07:42 -0700
Subject: [TML] Happy new year
Message-ID: <2DBADD56-ED2F-4296-B825-0685A748F60B@travellercentral.com>

Happy new year from the listmom.

Time to start working on the TML again, with searchable archives  
planned for the first project.   Please continue you suggestions.   
Anyone who'd like to help out send email to listmom at travellercentral.com

From tocoons at gmail.com  Tue Jan  1 15:11:03 2008
From: tocoons at gmail.com (Thad Coons)
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 17:11:03 -0500
Subject: [TML] Noncanonical TU 3D.
In-Reply-To: <C39F8C6C.117D7%jursamaj@yahoo.com>
References: <5f542a9e0801010206s17708912lbc1c700de8edbe89@mail.gmail.com>
	<C39F8C6C.117D7%jursamaj@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5f542a9e0801011411v6c60c600j9c37abba8a6e4a57@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/1/08, Jerry W Barrington <jursamaj at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> Hmm.  The set I have is part of the Hipparcos data.  It has 4981 systems
> out
> to 150 LY (434 systems within 50 LY, 59 in 20 LY), although of course a
> lot
> of those are binary and multiple systems.  What data set are you using?  I
> might like a copy of yours.  :)
>
> First In seems to use a very similar system to the old classic Traveller
> system of world building.  I prefer GURPS 4Ed:Space.  You randomly
> determine
> the age and initial mass of a star.  That tells you what the star should
> look like now.  But it's sort of limited, only making stars of .10 to 2.00
> Solar mass.  This month, I've been researching the current best estimate
> of
> the initial mass function, which extends from Brown Dwarfs several times
> Jupiter's mass, up to stars about 150 Solar mass.  Plugging those into
> this
> program I found tells you how the star evolves over time.  The G4:Space
> tables are rather simplified.
>
> With those things, I can fill whatever volume of space I want with stars
> of
> all sort, and generate planets for them.  I don't plan on forcing worlds
> to
> match pre-rolled UWPs.  I see real star data mainly as useful to see if my
> generator looks like reality.  :)
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML at travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>

I found this data set on the internet so long ago I'm not sure where it came
from. I think it includes the Hipparcos data, (judging by all the stars
named Hip xxxxx)
I have it in Quattro Pro spreadsheet format.

For some reason my H&E has quit working  :(,  so I may wind up constructing
a set of world-building rules almost from scratch. Unless I can find a
world-building site on the net that's already done it better.

From greg at nokes.name  Tue Jan  1 15:54:48 2008
From: greg at nokes.name (Greg)
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 14:54:48 -0800
Subject: [TML] Noncanonical TU 3D.
In-Reply-To: <5f542a9e0801011411v6c60c600j9c37abba8a6e4a57@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5f542a9e0801010206s17708912lbc1c700de8edbe89@mail.gmail.com>
	<C39F8C6C.117D7%jursamaj@yahoo.com>
	<5f542a9e0801011411v6c60c600j9c37abba8a6e4a57@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e67676d0801011454w66915104kb1d37f92eecb7356@mail.gmail.com>

On Jan 1, 2008 2:11 PM, Thad Coons <tocoons at gmail.com> wrote:

> For some reason my H&E has quit working  :(,  so I may wind up constructing
> a set of world-building rules almost from scratch. Unless I can find a
> world-building site on the net that's already done it better.


Have you played with StarGen [1] by Jim Burrows? It's based on the old
Accrete system as I recall, plays well with *nix, Mac and Winders, and
generates a nice HTML output detailing out the stellar systems.

[1] http://home.comcast.net/~brons/NerdCorner/StarGen/StarGen.html


-- 
Da Dukk, on the road again!
http://www.NWGamers.org - for a good time!
http://greg.nokes.name Ramblings from the Roost - For a Bad Time!

From jursamaj at yahoo.com  Tue Jan  1 16:05:43 2008
From: jursamaj at yahoo.com (Jerry W Barrington)
Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2008 18:05:43 -0500
Subject: [TML] Noncanonical TU 3D.
In-Reply-To: <e67676d0801011454w66915104kb1d37f92eecb7356@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C3A03177.117E8%jursamaj@yahoo.com>

On 1/1/08 5:54 PM, "Greg" <greg at nokes.name> wrote:

> On Jan 1, 2008 2:11 PM, Thad Coons <tocoons at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> For some reason my H&E has quit working  :(,  so I may wind up constructing
>> a set of world-building rules almost from scratch. Unless I can find a
>> world-building site on the net that's already done it better.
> 
> 
> Have you played with StarGen [1] by Jim Burrows? It's based on the old
> Accrete system as I recall, plays well with *nix, Mac and Winders, and
> generates a nice HTML output detailing out the stellar systems.
> 
> [1] http://home.comcast.net/~brons/NerdCorner/StarGen/StarGen.html

If you use it, make sure to note the seed value used to generate a system.
With that and the same version of the program, you can always regenerate the
system.  :)

I'm looking at modifying it to include limits for binary systems and maybe
some other things.


From jursamaj at yahoo.com  Tue Jan  1 19:10:52 2008
From: jursamaj at yahoo.com (Jerry W Barrington)
Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2008 21:10:52 -0500
Subject: [TML] Noncanonical TU 3D.
In-Reply-To: <C39F4AD9.117D0%jursamaj@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <C3A05CDC.117EB%jursamaj@yahoo.com>

On 1/1/08 1:41 AM, "Jerry W Barrington" <jursamaj at yahoo.com> wrote:

> I have a set of files listing stars within 50, 100, and 1000 LY.  The
> biggest one has (if I recall), over 70,000 stars.  But there will be a lot
> of dimmer stars missing out that far, lots of those M dwarf stars.  That's a
> problem with any star catalog.  And it has a lot more than just positional
> data.  Would that help you out?

With reference to the lack of dim stars, I made a graph of the 32000 dimmest
stars in my list of 77,000 stars mentioned above.  Link is below (PNG
format).  The horizontal scale is in Absolute Solar Luminosities.  The
vertical scale is in Squared LY from Sol (the 1,000,000 at top is actual
1,000 LY).  The 3 dots at the bottom of the chart include Alpha Centauri &
Proxima Centauri, and something else I haven't identified.

Note the complete lack of stars left of the pink line, and how few are just
right of it.  Stars should be there, but are too dim to be seem at that
distance by the Hipparcos telescope.  This is a major shortcoming of all
star catalogs.  :(

<http://briefcase.yahoo.com/jursamaj>
Folder: Star Stuff
File: HipparcosLimits


From GDWGAMES at aol.com  Tue Jan  1 21:54:37 2008
From: GDWGAMES at aol.com (GDWGAMES at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 23:54:37 EST
Subject: [TML] Side plot fun for GMs
Message-ID: <d5c.1741f2bc.34ac730d@aol.com>

>> So, a Mortar crew walks into a bar....

And each one has a duck on his head, so the bartender says . . . 

LKW


**************************************
See AOL's top rated recipes 
(http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)

From mole at travellercentral.com  Tue Jan  1 22:18:36 2008
From: mole at travellercentral.com (Mole)
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 21:18:36 -0800
Subject: [TML] Side plot fun for GMs
In-Reply-To: <d5c.1741f2bc.34ac730d@aol.com>
References: <d5c.1741f2bc.34ac730d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <F1DD5295-7CA0-46BE-8A65-2E78DCCEB1B4@travellercentral.com>


On Jan 1, 2008, at 8:54 PM, GDWGAMES at aol.com wrote:

>>> So, a Mortar crew walks into a bar....
>
> And each one has a duck on his head, so the bartender says . . .

Nothing at all. And continues to wipe off the bar with a clean towel.

The buxom blonde at the end of the bar looks over and says...

--
Mole




From domhanai at juno.com  Tue Jan  1 22:52:40 2008
From: domhanai at juno.com (domhanai at juno.com)
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 05:52:40 GMT
Subject: [TML] Side plot fun for GMs
Message-ID: <20080101.215240.25558.1@webmail08.dca.untd.com>

>>> So, a Mortar crew walks into a bar....

>And each one has a duck on his head, so the bartender says . . . 

"We don't serve their kind in here!" So, ...
 
Cougashika - I wanna play too, Loren!



_____________________________________________________________
Study law at a school near you.  Click for more info.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/Ioyw6iigeoewuc7WfOBm74pL2NjzVF2Gs7gRAco3BlSFjuDJWs3kUU/

From dougherty.jeffrey at gmail.com  Tue Jan  1 22:59:29 2008
From: dougherty.jeffrey at gmail.com (Jeffrey Dougherty)
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 00:59:29 -0500
Subject: [TML] Side plot fun for GMs
In-Reply-To: <20080101.215240.25558.1@webmail08.dca.untd.com>
References: <20080101.215240.25558.1@webmail08.dca.untd.com>
Message-ID: <d91ee22b0801012159q188694a4w1b1a4e2617a2db5f@mail.gmail.com>

On Jan 2, 2008 12:52 AM, domhanai at juno.com <domhanai at juno.com> wrote:

> >>> So, a Mortar crew walks into a bar....
>
> >And each one has a duck on his head, so the bartender says . . .
>
> "We don't serve their kind in here!" So, ...
>

One of the ducks turns to the bartender and says, "No, it's okay, they're
Army!".  Then a guy at the corner of the bar...

[Or maybe it just ends there?]

-JTD

From sburchett at gmail.com  Tue Jan  1 23:19:17 2008
From: sburchett at gmail.com (Steve Burchett)
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 00:19:17 -0600
Subject: [TML] Corp World - adventure seed by Joel Callahan
In-Reply-To: <5aca9be50712290044k6bd519f4k78eab64d849a510b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1832b5750712271735x53345bf5y4b70b6a7deae4900@mail.gmail.com>
	<5aca9be50712281741j363622d3u6d5e4f1ae442d1e@mail.gmail.com>
	<004101c849c1$16ca1f80$445e5e80$@com.au>
	<5aca9be50712281923r334cce9s83a17bbf8f6e3fa7@mail.gmail.com>
	<004b01c849d0$d9393790$8baba6b0$@com.au>
	<20071229051747.GH7554@soprano.little-possums.net>
	<000301c849df$65802250$308066f0$@com.au>
	<5aca9be50712282327n4a99d43fo2579112b858f160@mail.gmail.com>
	<000b01c849f0$da0ad1e0$8e2075a0$@com.au>
	<5aca9be50712290044k6bd519f4k78eab64d849a510b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3cf5ea650801012219m746d6c7au25275363b4bb01eb@mail.gmail.com>

I also saved it for play in the near future. Thanks for the seed!

Steve :D

From magick.crow at gmail.com  Wed Jan  2 02:26:04 2008
From: magick.crow at gmail.com (Knapp)
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 10:26:04 +0100
Subject: [TML] Noncanonical TU 3D.
In-Reply-To: <e67676d0801011454w66915104kb1d37f92eecb7356@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5f542a9e0801010206s17708912lbc1c700de8edbe89@mail.gmail.com>
	<C39F8C6C.117D7%jursamaj@yahoo.com>
	<5f542a9e0801011411v6c60c600j9c37abba8a6e4a57@mail.gmail.com>
	<e67676d0801011454w66915104kb1d37f92eecb7356@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f495db580801020126h3eac21e1r637fb44646baa606@mail.gmail.com>

On Jan 1, 2008 11:54 PM, Greg <greg at nokes.name> wrote:

> On Jan 1, 2008 2:11 PM, Thad Coons <tocoons at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > For some reason my H&E has quit working  :(,  so I may wind up
> constructing
> > a set of world-building rules almost from scratch. Unless I can find a
> > world-building site on the net that's already done it better.
>
>
> Have you played with StarGen [1] by Jim Burrows? It's based on the old
> Accrete system as I recall, plays well with *nix, Mac and Winders, and
> generates a nice HTML output detailing out the stellar systems.
>
> [1] http://home.comcast.net/~brons/NerdCorner/StarGen/StarGen.html<http://home.comcast.net/%7Ebrons/NerdCorner/StarGen/StarGen.html>


Works with Linux also with one change to one line and that is documented in
the source.
I would love to see anything that is done to make it better.
Douglas E Knapp

From shadow at shadowgard.com  Wed Jan  2 03:36:00 2008
From: shadow at shadowgard.com (shadow at shadowgard.com)
Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 02:36:00 -0800
Subject: [TML] New 3d computer simulation design: systems and suns
In-Reply-To: <f495db580712300555s5502c328pa8706f6d345e2c1d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20071226010119.GR7554@soprano.little-possums.net>,
	<47763ECE.7007.14012994@shadow.shadowgard.com>,
	<f495db580712300555s5502c328pa8706f6d345e2c1d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <477AF890.18808.2688A761@shadow.shadowgard.com>

On 30 Dec 2007 at 14:55, Knapp wrote:

> On Dec 29, 2007 9:34 PM,  <shadow at shadowgard.com> wrote:
> > On 29 Dec 2007 at 14:58, Knapp wrote:
> >
> > > Another way they spread is sexual contact. Drunk and horny but have
> > > the clap? Found a great one night stand at port? Just forget about it
> > > and do it anyway. Who will catch you?
> >
> > The public health department on your next trip thru...
> >
> > "You've got a crewman named Joe Smithers? And he had leave here on
> > 053-1109?"
> >
> > "Yeah?"
> >
> > "Right. Your ship is under quarantine, and you will all have to be
> > tested. And your cargo is impounded until testing is done. Then we'll
> > assess the fines...."
> >
> > If you don't co-operate, it's *amazing* how "intrusive" and
> > uncomfortable those medical tests can get...
> >
> > Starports *do* keep records. And the odds are good that they'll
> > include decent photos or the equivalent.
> >
> > So when Joe's infected partner goes in for treatment, the doc will
> > refer him or her to Public Health for a contact list to be obtained.
> >
> > Because there *will* be some things that can get nasty, this sort of
> > behavior will be looked on *very* dimly on a lot of worlds.
> > --
> > Leonard Erickson (aka shadow)
> > shadow at shadowgard dot com
> 
> The other side of this is that crew might not know he has something.
> Then unless you have sickness screening build into the entry search
> disease could come in. Responsibility could be hard to prove too. If
> the partner had multiple partners or was in some other way not able to
> remember who they were with. You wake up look over and think who is
> that? MAN WHAT A HEADACHE. I'm out a here. Thank god they are still
> sleeping. Maybe DNA tracking much not much else would work unless it
> was a really high tech place with a high law level.

You can test people even after they are "over" the disease. And the 
strains usually diverge enough that you can tell that the person had 
the same strain the local patient had.

So once you have suspicion, a simple test will confirm it.

It doesn't work all the time, but it works fairly well here.


--
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow)
shadow at shadowgard dot com



From shadow at shadowgard.com  Wed Jan  2 03:36:00 2008
From: shadow at shadowgard.com (shadow at shadowgard.com)
Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 02:36:00 -0800
Subject: [TML] Noncanonical TU 3D.
In-Reply-To: <C3A05CDC.117EB%jursamaj@yahoo.com>
References: <C39F4AD9.117D0%jursamaj@yahoo.com>,
	<C3A05CDC.117EB%jursamaj@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <477AF890.15765.2688A984@shadow.shadowgard.com>

On 1 Jan 2008 at 21:10, Jerry W Barrington wrote:

> On 1/1/08 1:41 AM, "Jerry W Barrington" <jursamaj at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> > I have a set of files listing stars within 50, 100, and 1000 LY.  The
> > biggest one has (if I recall), over 70,000 stars.  But there will be a lot
> > of dimmer stars missing out that far, lots of those M dwarf stars.  That's a
> > problem with any star catalog.  And it has a lot more than just positional
> > data.  Would that help you out?
> 
> With reference to the lack of dim stars, I made a graph of the 32000 dimmest
> stars in my list of 77,000 stars mentioned above.  Link is below (PNG
> format).  The horizontal scale is in Absolute Solar Luminosities.  The
> vertical scale is in Squared LY from Sol (the 1,000,000 at top is actual
> 1,000 LY).  The 3 dots at the bottom of the chart include Alpha Centauri &
> Proxima Centauri, and something else I haven't identified.
> 
> Note the complete lack of stars left of the pink line, and how few are just
> right of it.  Stars should be there, but are too dim to be seem at that
> distance by the Hipparcos telescope.  This is a major shortcoming of all
> star catalogs.  :(
> 
> <http://briefcase.yahoo.com/jursamaj>
> Folder: Star Stuff
> File: HipparcosLimits

The folder isn't public.

--
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow)
shadow at shadowgard dot com



From jursamaj at yahoo.com  Wed Jan  2 05:06:25 2008
From: jursamaj at yahoo.com (Jerry W Barrington)
Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 07:06:25 -0500
Subject: [TML] Noncanonical TU 3D.
In-Reply-To: <477AF890.15765.2688A984@shadow.shadowgard.com>
Message-ID: <C3A0E871.117FA%jursamaj@yahoo.com>

On 1/2/08 5:36 AM, "shadow at shadowgard.com" <shadow at shadowgard.com> wrote:

> On 1 Jan 2008 at 21:10, Jerry W Barrington wrote:
> 
>> With reference to the lack of dim stars, I made a graph of the 32000 dimmest
>> stars in my list of 77,000 stars mentioned above.  Link is below (PNG
>> format).  The horizontal scale is in Absolute Solar Luminosities.  The
>> vertical scale is in Squared LY from Sol (the 1,000,000 at top is actual
>> 1,000 LY).  The 3 dots at the bottom of the chart include Alpha Centauri &
>> Proxima Centauri, and something else I haven't identified.
>> 
>> Note the complete lack of stars left of the pink line, and how few are just
>> right of it.  Stars should be there, but are too dim to be seem at that
>> distance by the Hipparcos telescope.  This is a major shortcoming of all
>> star catalogs.  :(
>> 
>> <http://briefcase.yahoo.com/jursamaj>
>> Folder: Star Stuff
>> File: HipparcosLimits
> 
> The folder isn't public.

Odd.  It was when I created it about 2 years ago.  And it still was before I
put that file in it.  I guess since Yahoo dumped Yahoo Photos in favor of
Flikr & "premium Storage", they don't like me sharing any more.

Fortunately, I still have a Geocities page from waaaay back.  :)

<http://www.geocities.com/jursamaj/HipparcosLimits.png>


From magick.crow at gmail.com  Wed Jan  2 05:34:06 2008
From: magick.crow at gmail.com (Knapp)
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 13:34:06 +0100
Subject: [TML] New 3d computer simulation design: systems and suns
In-Reply-To: <477AF890.18808.2688A761@shadow.shadowgard.com>
References: <20071226010119.GR7554@soprano.little-possums.net>
	<47763ECE.7007.14012994@shadow.shadowgard.com>
	<f495db580712300555s5502c328pa8706f6d345e2c1d@mail.gmail.com>
	<477AF890.18808.2688A761@shadow.shadowgard.com>
Message-ID: <f495db580801020434vf5eed65h5af7044886f4f417@mail.gmail.com>

On Jan 2, 2008 11:36 AM, <shadow at shadowgard.com> wrote:

> On 30 Dec 2007 at 14:55, Knapp wrote:
>
> > On Dec 29, 2007 9:34 PM,  <shadow at shadowgard.com> wrote:
> > > On 29 Dec 2007 at 14:58, Knapp wrote:
> > >
> > > > Another way they spread is sexual contact. Drunk and horny but have
> > > > the clap? Found a great one night stand at port? Just forget about
> it
> > > > and do it anyway. Who will catch you?
> > >
> > > The public health department on your next trip thru...
> > >
> > > "You've got a crewman named Joe Smithers? And he had leave here on
> > > 053-1109?"
> > >
> > > "Yeah?"
> > >
> > > "Right. Your ship is under quarantine, and you will all have to be
> > > tested. And your cargo is impounded until testing is done. Then we'll
> > > assess the fines...."
> > >
> > > If you don't co-operate, it's *amazing* how "intrusive" and
> > > uncomfortable those medical tests can get...
> > >
> > > Starports *do* keep records. And the odds are good that they'll
> > > include decent photos or the equivalent.
> > >
> > > So when Joe's infected partner goes in for treatment, the doc will
> > > refer him or her to Public Health for a contact list to be obtained.
> > >
> > > Because there *will* be some things that can get nasty, this sort of
> > > behavior will be looked on *very* dimly on a lot of worlds.
> > > --
> > > Leonard Erickson (aka shadow)
> > > shadow at shadowgard dot com
> >
> > The other side of this is that crew might not know he has something.
> > Then unless you have sickness screening build into the entry search
> > disease could come in. Responsibility could be hard to prove too. If
> > the partner had multiple partners or was in some other way not able to
> > remember who they were with. You wake up look over and think who is
> > that? MAN WHAT A HEADACHE. I'm out a here. Thank god they are still
> > sleeping. Maybe DNA tracking much not much else would work unless it
> > was a really high tech place with a high law level.
>
> You can test people even after they are "over" the disease. And the
> strains usually diverge enough that you can tell that the person had
> the same strain the local patient had.
>
> So once you have suspicion, a simple test will confirm it.
>
> It doesn't work all the time, but it works fairly well here.
>
>
> --
> Leonard Erickson (aka shadow)
> shadow at shadowgard dot com
>

I would go with that provided the disease is known or closely related to a
know one and the suspicion is accurate.
Douglas E Knapp

From john.appel at gmail.com  Wed Jan  2 07:01:15 2008
From: john.appel at gmail.com (John Appel)
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 09:01:15 -0500
Subject: [TML] Side plot fun for GMs
In-Reply-To: <d91ee22b0801012159q188694a4w1b1a4e2617a2db5f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20080101.215240.25558.1@webmail08.dca.untd.com>
	<d91ee22b0801012159q188694a4w1b1a4e2617a2db5f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <eba0eb960801020601s6a2c6b06u83dd96a711106a5e@mail.gmail.com>

Continuing the joke meme:

> > >>> So, a Mortar crew walks into a bar....
> >
> > >And each one has a duck on his head, so the bartender says . . .
> >
> > "We don't serve their kind in here!" So, ...
> >
>
> One of the ducks turns to the bartender and says, "No, it's okay, they're
> Army!".  Then a guy at the corner of the bar...
>
> [Or maybe it just ends there?]

...says "Huh, thought you guys were Exploration Branch."

From jtkwon at jtkgroup.com  Wed Jan  2 07:11:57 2008
From: jtkwon at jtkgroup.com (John Kwon)
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 09:11:57 -0500
Subject: [TML] Dean Drive
In-Reply-To: <889263490712301110j71c11db1n49ff54846c7cf4c9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <000d01c849f7$f8f75e50$eae61af0$@com.au>
	<47763ECC.11265.140122DD@shadow.shadowgard.com>
	<889263490712291332l3caee805r95dc5f0862c2611e@mail.gmail.com>
	<4776ED66.17930.1AF7366@shadow.shadowgard.com>
	<889263490712301110j71c11db1n49ff54846c7cf4c9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <da11fc1c0801020611gaba7147q8cc882ce94ab9283@mail.gmail.com>

On 12/30/07, Brad Murray <bjmurray.halfjack at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Dec 30, 2007 12:59 AM,  <shadow at shadowgard.com> wrote:
> > > Change in acceleration over time is, happily, "jerk".  Seriously.  I
> > > love engineering.
> >
> > Apparently the term wasn't well establishe back around 1960...
>
> Probably not -- first use I can find is around 1955.
>

Or, "jolt", measured in "stapps", for Col. John Stapp.

From jtkwon at jtkgroup.com  Wed Jan  2 07:19:34 2008
From: jtkwon at jtkgroup.com (John Kwon)
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 09:19:34 -0500
Subject: [TML] New 3d computer simulation design: systems and suns
In-Reply-To: <200712292054.37748.stuart@frew.net.nz>
References: <20071226010119.GR7554@soprano.little-possums.net>
	<f495db580712280737m3a8a8a41q3eadb5e264797ac2@mail.gmail.com>
	<47757B4A.6539.1102717C@shadow.shadowgard.com>
	<200712292054.37748.stuart@frew.net.nz>
Message-ID: <da11fc1c0801020619o4a7d348bs82f6abaf50c2fd74@mail.gmail.com>

On 12/29/07, Stuart Frew <stuart at frew.net.nz> wrote:
>
>
> > Well, it's *primitive* that youi have to worry about. Most disease
> > *prevention* stuff is very low tech. Stuff like boiling or otherwise
> > purifying water, proper disposal of wastes and washing things.
> >
> I've been in mid tech systems, say 7 or 8 ;^), where they know about
> things
> like germ theory and know they are meant perform basic hygiene rituals but
> do
> not.
>
> Or feel compled to be in large groups whilst in the contagious stage of
> infection.
> Anyone not had the work colleague "tough it out" at the office only to
> spread
> the bug to everyone else.
>
> Similarly, parents not getting their offspring vaccinated due to fears
> about
> side effects, some alarmist and some real, and the lack of perceived
> threat.
>
> Sure things are better than when the malaise was the prime theory for
> spreading deases but it takes more than knowledge.
>
> Ob Traveller:
> One of the PC's is taken down by the local equivalent of Deli Belly, then
> the
> rest have to extract the PC from the "Health Care" system.
> Add a pinch of the talk form the same sex marages. "Are you a relation?",
> "No
> I'm her captain", "Oh sorry - relations only"
> (If you can do it to a PC who's player has really had it - simultaneously
> out
> of both ends - for the personal touch)
>

Consider the tech level where everyone is used to "panimmunity" - they may
not even bother with handwashing anymore, because they just can't get sick.

If they're ever sent to a place that actually does have germs they're not
immune to, there could be major problems.

Disease then becomes a plot device, rather like the original Star Trek.

From andrew.long at yahoo.com  Wed Jan  2 15:07:56 2008
From: andrew.long at yahoo.com (Andrew Long)
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 22:07:56 +0000
Subject: [TML] Side plot fun for GMs
In-Reply-To: <F1DD5295-7CA0-46BE-8A65-2E78DCCEB1B4@travellercentral.com>
References: <d5c.1741f2bc.34ac730d@aol.com>
	<F1DD5295-7CA0-46BE-8A65-2E78DCCEB1B4@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <7DE3EB0E-3D3C-42D1-966B-38A508251CB7@yahoo.com>


On 2 Jan 2008, at 05:18, Mole wrote:

>
> On Jan 1, 2008, at 8:54 PM, GDWGAMES at aol.com wrote:
>
>>>> So, a Mortar crew walks into a bar....
>>
>> And each one has a duck on his head, so the bartender says . . .
>
> Nothing at all. And continues to wipe off the bar with a clean towel.
>
> The buxom blonde at the end of the bar looks over and says...
>
>
"Of all the bars, in all the towns, of all the worlds, you have to  
walk into mine..."
(Turns to the piano player)
"Play it, Sam"

Happy New Year

Andy
-- 
Andrew Long
andrew dot long at yahoo dot com




From tocoons at gmail.com  Wed Jan  2 17:33:56 2008
From: tocoons at gmail.com (Thad Coons)
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 19:33:56 -0500
Subject: [TML] Noncanonical TU 3D.
In-Reply-To: <C3A0E871.117FA%jursamaj@yahoo.com>
References: <477AF890.15765.2688A984@shadow.shadowgard.com>
	<C3A0E871.117FA%jursamaj@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5f542a9e0801021633u629b1e8cu223c0cd02fc89126@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/2/08, Jerry W Barrington <jursamaj at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> On 1/2/08 5:36 AM, "shadow at shadowgard.com" <shadow at shadowgard.com> wrote:
>
> > On 1 Jan 2008 at 21:10, Jerry W Barrington wrote:
> >
> >> With reference to the lack of dim stars, I made a graph of the 32000
> dimmest
> >> stars in my list of 77,000 stars mentioned above.  Link is below (PNG
> >> format).  The horizontal scale is in Absolute Solar Luminosities.  The
> >> vertical scale is in Squared LY from Sol (the 1,000,000 at top is
> actual
> >> 1,000 LY).  The 3 dots at the bottom of the chart include Alpha
> Centauri &
> >> Proxima Centauri, and something else I haven't identified.
> >>
> >> Note the complete lack of stars left of the pink line, and how few are
> just
> >> right of it.  Stars should be there, but are too dim to be seem at that
> >> distance by the Hipparcos telescope.  This is a major shortcoming of
> all
> >> star catalogs.  :(
> >>
> >> <http://briefcase.yahoo.com/jursamaj>
> >> Folder: Star Stuff
> >> File: HipparcosLimits
> >
> > The folder isn't public.
>
> Odd.  It was when I created it about 2 years ago.  And it still was before
> I
> put that file in it.  I guess since Yahoo dumped Yahoo Photos in favor of
> Flikr & "premium Storage", they don't like me sharing any more.
>
> Fortunately, I still have a Geocities page from waaaay back.  :)
>
> <http://www.geocities.com/jursamaj/HipparcosLimits.png>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML at travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml



It looks like our current charts pick up most stars brighter than about .001
Solar luminosity out to about 30 LY. For me, that looks like a reasonable
cutoff.  The very dark and cold planets that might be found around
stars that dim or dimmer seem to be excellent places to stay away from
unless it's absolutely necessary.

From tocoons at gmail.com  Wed Jan  2 17:47:43 2008
From: tocoons at gmail.com (Thad Coons)
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 19:47:43 -0500
Subject: [TML] Noncanonical TU 3D.
In-Reply-To: <e67676d0801011454w66915104kb1d37f92eecb7356@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5f542a9e0801010206s17708912lbc1c700de8edbe89@mail.gmail.com>
	<C39F8C6C.117D7%jursamaj@yahoo.com>
	<5f542a9e0801011411v6c60c600j9c37abba8a6e4a57@mail.gmail.com>
	<e67676d0801011454w66915104kb1d37f92eecb7356@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5f542a9e0801021647k7613a6f4q3522f6ba00787f58@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/1/08, Greg <greg at nokes.name> wrote:
>
>
> Have you played with StarGen [1] by Jim Burrows? It's based on the old
> Accrete system as I recall, plays well with *nix, Mac and Winders, and
> generates a nice HTML output detailing out the stellar systems.
>
> [1] http://home.comcast.net/~brons/NerdCorner/StarGen/StarGen.html


My version of Windows choked on some non-standard part of it.  I tried out
the
web version. The difficulty is that it takes only one input parameter, star
mass, and generates everything else from that. I don't have an easy way to
correlate that to the spectral type.
I am looking at Gillett's
World-Building<http://www.amazon.com/World-Building-Science-Fiction-Writing-Stephen/dp/0898797071>book
 which appears to be fairly close to what I'm looking for. One of the
reviewers mentioned that he had put the equations in a spreadsheet and liked
playing with the results. That sounds like what I'd like to do.

From garry.e.ward at worldnet.att.net  Wed Jan  2 18:04:54 2008
From: garry.e.ward at worldnet.att.net (Garry Ward)
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 20:04:54 -0500
Subject: [TML] Noncanonical TU 3D.
References: <5f542a9e0801010206s17708912lbc1c700de8edbe89@mail.gmail.com><C39F8C6C.117D7%jursamaj@yahoo.com><5f542a9e0801011411v6c60c600j9c37abba8a6e4a57@mail.gmail.com><e67676d0801011454w66915104kb1d37f92eecb7356@mail.gmail.com>
	<5f542a9e0801021647k7613a6f4q3522f6ba00787f58@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000801c84da4$edd20b00$8c2c4b0c@YOURFEDDA97C02>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Thad Coons" <tocoons at gmail.com>
To: "The Traveller Mailing List" <tml at travellercentral.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 7:47 PM
Subject: Re: [TML] Noncanonical TU 3D.


> On 1/1/08, Greg <greg at nokes.name> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Have you played with StarGen [1] by Jim Burrows? It's based on the old
>> Accrete system as I recall, plays well with *nix, Mac and Winders, and
>> generates a nice HTML output detailing out the stellar systems.
>>
>> [1] http://home.comcast.net/~brons/NerdCorner/StarGen/StarGen.html
>
>
> My version of Windows choked on some non-standard part of it.  I tried out
> the
> web version. The difficulty is that it takes only one input parameter, 
> star
> mass, and generates everything else from that. I don't have an easy way to
> correlate that to the spectral type.
> I am looking at Gillett's
> World-Building<http://www.amazon.com/World-Building-Science-Fiction-Writing-Stephen/dp/0898797071>book
> which appears to be fairly close to what I'm looking for. One of the
> reviewers mentioned that he had put the equations in a spreadsheet and 
> liked
> playing with the results. That sounds like what I'd like to do.
I have also made use of that book, supplementing materials in Traveller, 
both in a Lotus spread sheet and in a C#.NET program.

I've set it up so that given the spectral class (say G2) and magnitude (say 
4.85), I can get Luminosity, size, mass, various gravity boundaries and 
assorted orbital data (orbital period, base surface temp) for planets in the 
standard Traveller orbits.

Works rather nicely.

Garry
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML at travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 



From garry.e.ward at worldnet.att.net  Wed Jan  2 18:06:48 2008
From: garry.e.ward at worldnet.att.net (Garry Ward)
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 20:06:48 -0500
Subject: [TML] Noncanonical TU 3D.
References: <477AF890.15765.2688A984@shadow.shadowgard.com><C3A0E871.117FA%jursamaj@yahoo.com>
	<5f542a9e0801021633u629b1e8cu223c0cd02fc89126@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000901c84da4$ee33b300$8c2c4b0c@YOURFEDDA97C02>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Thad Coons" <tocoons at gmail.com>
To: "The Traveller Mailing List" <tml at travellercentral.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 7:33 PM
Subject: Re: [TML] Noncanonical TU 3D.


> On 1/2/08, Jerry W Barrington <jursamaj at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>
>
> It looks like our current charts pick up most stars brighter than about 
> .001
> Solar luminosity out to about 30 LY. For me, that looks like a reasonable
> cutoff.  The very dark and cold planets that might be found around
> stars that dim or dimmer seem to be excellent places to stay away from
> unless it's absolutely necessary.
For standard Jump, yeah; for Stutter Warp they could serve as useful layover 
and charge disappation points.

Garry
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML at travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 



From jursamaj at yahoo.com  Wed Jan  2 20:02:45 2008
From: jursamaj at yahoo.com (Jerry W Barrington)
Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 22:02:45 -0500
Subject: [TML] Noncanonical TU 3D.
In-Reply-To: <000901c84da4$ee33b300$8c2c4b0c@YOURFEDDA97C02>
Message-ID: <C3A1BA85.1180F%jursamaj@yahoo.com>

On 1/2/08 8:06 PM, "Garry Ward" <garry.e.ward at worldnet.att.net> wrote:

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Thad Coons" <tocoons at gmail.com>
> To: "The Traveller Mailing List" <tml at travellercentral.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 7:33 PM
> Subject: Re: [TML] Noncanonical TU 3D.
> 
> 
>> On 1/2/08, Jerry W Barrington <jursamaj at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> <snip>
>> 
>> 
>> It looks like our current charts pick up most stars brighter than about
>> .001
>> Solar luminosity out to about 30 LY. For me, that looks like a reasonable
>> cutoff.  The very dark and cold planets that might be found around
>> stars that dim or dimmer seem to be excellent places to stay away from
>> unless it's absolutely necessary.
> For standard Jump, yeah; for Stutter Warp they could serve as useful layover
> and charge disappation points.

Hmm.  That post by Thad must have got lost on the way to my inbox...

True, the catalog looks fairly complete to that range and dimmness.  If that
works for you, go for it.  :)

Actually, even standard Jump could make use of waypoint stars.  If they have
gas giants or comets (very probable) they're a great place to refuel on the
way to somewhere better.

Oh, and for what it's worth, I've seen so many good references to Gillett's
World-Building that I just went and ordered it.  $8 and a week or so...


From tocoons at gmail.com  Wed Jan  2 20:13:18 2008
From: tocoons at gmail.com (Thad Coons)
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 22:13:18 -0500
Subject: [TML]  Low tech ship design
Message-ID: <5f542a9e0801021913y7a320d2an7160a403295f3d1@mail.gmail.com>

I'm using Andy Akins'  FF&S2 spreadsheet for my designs, but I could
use some hints from more experienced ship designers.

I have two craft in mind. First is a TL 8  Earth-to-Orbit combination,
probably
a two-stage to orbit (1st stage atmospheric, 2nd stage rocket), with both
components fully reusable. Has anyone tried designing such a thing?

The other is a jump drive test vehicle, which would start out at
effectively Jump-0. set (obviously) at a later time than the early craft.
Any suggestions on how to handle this?

From penguin_boy at mindspring.com  Wed Jan  2 20:41:42 2008
From: penguin_boy at mindspring.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 19:41:42 -0800
Subject: [TML] Side plot fun for GMs
In-Reply-To: <d5c.1741f2bc.34ac730d@aol.com>
References: <d5c.1741f2bc.34ac730d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <E1JAGzs-0001wI-TQ@elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

At 08:54 PM 1/1/2008, GDWGAMES at aol.com raced into the room, and 
announced the following:
> >> So, a Mortar crew walks into a bar....
>
>And each one has a duck on his head, so the bartender says . . .

"Cover, you morons. You're not supposed to leave the barracks without 
your cover!!!"

(I think I just mortally injured my wife with that one...)


--

Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry - penguin_boy at mindspring.com
http://gridlore.livejournal.com/

"The penguins alone could not have saved us, but in
conjunction with the mist they seem to have done so."
- At the Mountains of Madness, H.P. Lovecraft 


From jursamaj at yahoo.com  Wed Jan  2 21:10:38 2008
From: jursamaj at yahoo.com (Jerry W Barrington)
Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 23:10:38 -0500
Subject: [TML] Side plot fun for GMs
In-Reply-To: <E1JAGzs-0001wI-TQ@elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <C3A1CA6E.1181B%jursamaj@yahoo.com>

On 1/2/08 10:41 PM, "Douglas Berry" <penguin_boy at mindspring.com> wrote:

> At 08:54 PM 1/1/2008, GDWGAMES at aol.com raced into the room, and
> announced the following:
>>>> So, a Mortar crew walks into a bar....
>> 
>> And each one has a duck on his head, so the bartender says . . .
> 
> "Cover, you morons. You're not supposed to leave the barracks without
> your cover!!!"
> 
> (I think I just mortally injured my wife with that one...)

Is that something like a keyboard kill?  :)

> "The penguins alone could not have saved us, but in
> conjunction with the mist they seem to have done so."
> - At the Mountains of Madness, H.P. Lovecraft

I don't have my copy handy...  Is that an accurate quote?


From tim at little-possums.net  Wed Jan  2 22:39:59 2008
From: tim at little-possums.net (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 16:39:59 +1100
Subject: [TML] Noncanonical TU 3D.
In-Reply-To: <5f542a9e0801021633u629b1e8cu223c0cd02fc89126@mail.gmail.com>
References: <477AF890.15765.2688A984@shadow.shadowgard.com>
	<C3A0E871.117FA%jursamaj@yahoo.com>
	<5f542a9e0801021633u629b1e8cu223c0cd02fc89126@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20080103053959.GA28863@soprano.little-possums.net>

On Wed, Jan 02, 2008 at 07:33:56PM -0500, Thad Coons wrote:
> The very dark and cold planets that might be found around stars that
> dim or dimmer seem to be excellent places to stay away from unless
> it's absolutely necessary.

There may well be planets that are as hot as Earth or even Mercury
around such stars.  They'll just be tide-locked.

The ones further out, though very cold, will not be dark.  We have an
amazing ability to adapt to overall lighting levels.  A *brightly* lit
interior room generally gets rather a lot less than 1 W/m^2 of light
power.


- Tim

From tim at little-possums.net  Thu Jan  3 00:39:44 2008
From: tim at little-possums.net (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 18:39:44 +1100
Subject: [TML] Noncanonical TU 3D.
In-Reply-To: <5f542a9e0801021647k7613a6f4q3522f6ba00787f58@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5f542a9e0801010206s17708912lbc1c700de8edbe89@mail.gmail.com>
	<C39F8C6C.117D7%jursamaj@yahoo.com>
	<5f542a9e0801011411v6c60c600j9c37abba8a6e4a57@mail.gmail.com>
	<e67676d0801011454w66915104kb1d37f92eecb7356@mail.gmail.com>
	<5f542a9e0801021647k7613a6f4q3522f6ba00787f58@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20080103073944.GO7554@soprano.little-possums.net>

On Wed, Jan 02, 2008 at 07:47:43PM -0500, Thad Coons wrote:
> The difficulty is that it takes only one input parameter, star mass,
> and generates everything else from that. I don't have an easy way to
> correlate that to the spectral type.

There is a rough table on Wikipedia for main sequence stars.
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stellar_classification
The figures there seem to be more for the upper end of the range than
average or lower.


- Tim

From tim at little-possums.net  Thu Jan  3 00:52:19 2008
From: tim at little-possums.net (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 18:52:19 +1100
Subject: [TML] Low tech ship design
In-Reply-To: <5f542a9e0801021913y7a320d2an7160a403295f3d1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5f542a9e0801021913y7a320d2an7160a403295f3d1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20080103075219.GP7554@soprano.little-possums.net>

On Wed, Jan 02, 2008 at 10:13:18PM -0500, Thad Coons wrote:
> First is a TL 8 Earth-to-Orbit combination, probably a two-stage to
> orbit (1st stage atmospheric, 2nd stage rocket), with both
> components fully reusable. Has anyone tried designing such a thing?

I have, though not with that spreadsheet or in FF&S2.  I handled it in
GURPS Vehicles just as a hypersonic aircraft, with the rocket vehicle
portion treated as a large external "pod" in atmospheric flight.
After the rocket rod was detached, the stats on the aircraft changed,
and obviously the rocket craft had its own separate stats.

I don't know if FF&S2 or the spreadsheet has suitable provisions for
large external pods.


> The other is a jump drive test vehicle, which would start out at
> effectively Jump-0. set (obviously) at a later time than the early
> craft.  Any suggestions on how to handle this?

Since it's experimental, the jump drive is likely to be substantially
bulkier, use more fuel, and be much more expensive than a later
developed drive of the same capability.  A quick hack that would
accomplish all three would be to call it a jump-6 drive for design
purposes, but with jump-0 performance.


- Tim

From jursamaj at yahoo.com  Thu Jan  3 01:07:56 2008
From: jursamaj at yahoo.com (Jerry W Barrington)
Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2008 03:07:56 -0500
Subject: [TML] Low tech ship design
In-Reply-To: <20080103075219.GP7554@soprano.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <C3A2020C.11828%jursamaj@yahoo.com>

On 1/3/08 2:52 AM, "Timothy Little" <tim at little-possums.net> wrote:

> On Wed, Jan 02, 2008 at 10:13:18PM -0500, Thad Coons wrote:
>> The other is a jump drive test vehicle, which would start out at
>> effectively Jump-0. set (obviously) at a later time than the early
>> craft.  Any suggestions on how to handle this?
> 
> Since it's experimental, the jump drive is likely to be substantially
> bulkier, use more fuel, and be much more expensive than a later
> developed drive of the same capability.  A quick hack that would
> accomplish all three would be to call it a jump-6 drive for design
> purposes, but with jump-0 performance.

I like the idea, but treating it as Jump 6 seems excessive!  I would have
thought in the 1 to 3 range.


From jursamaj at yahoo.com  Thu Jan  3 01:21:06 2008
From: jursamaj at yahoo.com (Jerry W Barrington)
Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2008 03:21:06 -0500
Subject: [TML] Noncanonical TU 3D.
In-Reply-To: <20080103073944.GO7554@soprano.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <C3A20522.1182B%jursamaj@yahoo.com>

On 1/3/08 2:39 AM, "Timothy Little" <tim at little-possums.net> wrote:

> On Wed, Jan 02, 2008 at 07:47:43PM -0500, Thad Coons wrote:
>> The difficulty is that it takes only one input parameter, star mass,
>> and generates everything else from that. I don't have an easy way to
>> correlate that to the spectral type.
> 
> There is a rough table on Wikipedia for main sequence stars.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stellar_classification
> The figures there seem to be more for the upper end of the range than
> average or lower.

Also, any given star varies considerably in brightness, even over it's main
sequence life.  GURPS 4ed:Space has an excellent listing on page 103.  It
shows a G2 star going from .68 to 1.6 Solar luminosity over a span of 10
billion years.  After that it spends 1.6 billion years as a sub-giant still
at about 1.6 luminosity, and another billion as a giant at about 40
luminosity.

This table is a simplification, and the stellar evolution software I'm
tinkering with goes into *much* more detail, and handles stars larger than 2
Solar mass and more specific masses (any number instead of only multiples of
.05).


From magick.crow at gmail.com  Thu Jan  3 01:48:07 2008
From: magick.crow at gmail.com (Knapp)
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 09:48:07 +0100
Subject: [TML] Noncanonical TU 3D.
In-Reply-To: <5f542a9e0801021647k7613a6f4q3522f6ba00787f58@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5f542a9e0801010206s17708912lbc1c700de8edbe89@mail.gmail.com>
	<C39F8C6C.117D7%jursamaj@yahoo.com>
	<5f542a9e0801011411v6c60c600j9c37abba8a6e4a57@mail.gmail.com>
	<e67676d0801011454w66915104kb1d37f92eecb7356@mail.gmail.com>
	<5f542a9e0801021647k7613a6f4q3522f6ba00787f58@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f495db580801030048s3d08ebb7t51e3be9e452f5ff1@mail.gmail.com>

On Jan 3, 2008 1:47 AM, Thad Coons <tocoons at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 1/1/08, Greg <greg at nokes.name> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Have you played with StarGen [1] by Jim Burrows? It's based on the old
> > Accrete system as I recall, plays well with *nix, Mac and Winders, and
> > generates a nice HTML output detailing out the stellar systems.
> >
> > [1] http://home.comcast.net/~brons/NerdCorner/StarGen/StarGen.html
>
>
> My version of Windows choked on some non-standard part of it.  I tried out
> the
> web version. The difficulty is that it takes only one input parameter, star
> mass, and generates everything else from that. I don't have an easy way to
> correlate that to the spectral type.
> I am looking at Gillett's
> World-Building<http://www.amazon.com/World-Building-Science-Fiction-Writing-Stephen/dp/0898797071>book
>  which appears to be fairly close to what I'm looking for. One of the
> reviewers mentioned that he had put the equations in a spreadsheet and liked
> playing with the results. That sounds like what I'd like to do.
>

I am looking into using worldgen.pdf paper to write a program to make
systems. Any thoughts on that?
I would be happy to share it with anyone here. I will only need it as
a one shot deal.
Douglas E Knapp

From tgrav at mac.com  Thu Jan  3 06:51:21 2008
From: tgrav at mac.com (Tommy Grav)
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 08:51:21 -0500
Subject: [TML] Low tech ship design
In-Reply-To: <C3A2020C.11828%jursamaj@yahoo.com>
References: <C3A2020C.11828%jursamaj@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <2B2E711E-EC26-4F75-9C9F-E4B8D0319E8F@mac.com>


On Jan 3, 2008, at 3:07 AM, Jerry W Barrington wrote:

> On 1/3/08 2:52 AM, "Timothy Little" <tim at little-possums.net> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Jan 02, 2008 at 10:13:18PM -0500, Thad Coons wrote:
>>> The other is a jump drive test vehicle, which would start out at
>>> effectively Jump-0. set (obviously) at a later time than the early
>>> craft.  Any suggestions on how to handle this?
>>
>> Since it's experimental, the jump drive is likely to be substantially
>> bulkier, use more fuel, and be much more expensive than a later
>> developed drive of the same capability.  A quick hack that would
>> accomplish all three would be to call it a jump-6 drive for design
>> purposes, but with jump-0 performance.
>
> I like the idea, but treating it as Jump 6 seems excessive!  I  
> would have
> thought in the 1 to 3 range.

I would suggest that the size depends on how close they are to a working
stable drive.

Conceptual stage = Jump 6 requirements
First field deployment = Jump 5 requirements
Second field deployment = Jump 4 requirements
.
.

and so on until they get the working jump-1 drive. That gives you the
ability to model different stages of development.

Cheers
   Tommy

From gypsycomet at gmail.com  Thu Jan  3 10:19:21 2008
From: gypsycomet at gmail.com (Jim Kundert)
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 09:19:21 -0800
Subject: [TML] TML Digest, Vol 2007, Issue 312 (yes, really)
Message-ID: <b8752ebd0801030919p60a8422dk52f958aac7a7f7c4@mail.gmail.com>

"On 12/30/07, tml-request at travellercentral.com
<tml-request at travellercentral.com> wrote"

And that was the last Digest I saw.  Was there a 313, or a v2008 Issue 1?

GC

From ewan at quibell.org.uk  Thu Jan  3 10:38:34 2008
From: ewan at quibell.org.uk (Ewan Quibell)
Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2008 17:38:34 +0000
Subject: [TML] Low tech ship design
In-Reply-To: <5f542a9e0801021913y7a320d2an7160a403295f3d1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5f542a9e0801021913y7a320d2an7160a403295f3d1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <477D1D9A.1060804@quibell.org.uk>

Thad Coons wrote:
> I'm using Andy Akins'  FF&S2 spreadsheet for my designs, but I could
> use some hints from more experienced ship designers.
> 
> I have two craft in mind. First is a TL 8  Earth-to-Orbit combination,
> probably
> a two-stage to orbit (1st stage atmospheric, 2nd stage rocket), with both
> components fully reusable. Has anyone tried designing such a thing?

I don't know if it's what you are looking for as they are MT but have a 
look here:

	http://www.skaran.net/megatraveller/megindex.html

or the Dean files here:

	http://traveller.mu.org/archive/DeanFiles/SHIP0000.HTM

both have TL8 space ships and boats/space planes.

> The other is a jump drive test vehicle, which would start out at
> effectively Jump-0. set (obviously) at a later time than the early craft.
> Any suggestions on how to handle this?

No got me there. Anyway hope this helps.

Best regards,

Ewan
-- 
  ewan at quibell.org.uk

  They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old;
  Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
  At the going down of the sun and in the morning
  We will remember them.
			Laurence Binyon

  My spelling is entirerly due to dyslexia, typos, and poetic license


From skaran at bordernet.com.au  Thu Jan  3 10:39:51 2008
From: skaran at bordernet.com.au (Antony Farrell)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 02:39:51 +0900
Subject: [TML] And you thought it was hot
In-Reply-To: <2B2E711E-EC26-4F75-9C9F-E4B8D0319E8F@mac.com>
Message-ID: <000001c84e2f$a8b060e0$0300a8c0@skaran>

Todays temperature (3 January 2008) from the town of Northam. This is about
27km from where I live so is a good indication of temperatures here.

NORTHAM Thu, Jan 3

44.8?C 

This are was described as a furnace in the 1860s before global warming set
in, really looking forward to the climate here warming up further.
Incidently the highest temperatures usually occur in February here.

Antony Farrell
Bakers Hill (near Northam)
Western Australia

No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition. 
Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.13/1207 - Release Date: 2/01/2008
11:29 AM
 


From jtkwon at jtkgroup.com  Thu Jan  3 10:47:34 2008
From: jtkwon at jtkgroup.com (John Kwon)
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 12:47:34 -0500
Subject: [TML] And you thought it was hot
In-Reply-To: <000001c84e2f$a8b060e0$0300a8c0@skaran>
References: <2B2E711E-EC26-4F75-9C9F-E4B8D0319E8F@mac.com>
	<000001c84e2f$a8b060e0$0300a8c0@skaran>
Message-ID: <da11fc1c0801030947t3fa07b13s383892332784fd52@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/3/08, Antony Farrell <skaran at bordernet.com.au> wrote:
>
> Todays temperature (3 January 2008) from the town of Northam. This is
> about
> 27km from where I live so is a good indication of temperatures here.
>
> NORTHAM Thu, Jan 3
>
> 44.8?C
>
> This are was described as a furnace in the 1860s before global warming set
> in, really looking forward to the climate here warming up further.
> Incidently the highest temperatures usually occur in February here.
>
> Antony Farrell
> Bakers Hill (near Northam)
> Western Australia
>
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.13/1207 - Release Date:
> 2/01/2008
> 11:29 AM
>
>

Sounds like you need to put up a solar power station, and use it to power
your air conditioner and ice machine.

From magick.crow at gmail.com  Thu Jan  3 11:04:29 2008
From: magick.crow at gmail.com (Knapp)
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 19:04:29 +0100
Subject: [TML] Is gravity backwards?
Message-ID: <f495db580801031004y1600b728u7e5ecdf13d2f7ad4@mail.gmail.com>

http://www.biochem.szote.u-szeged.hu/astrojan/gravity.htm
I read this but am not trained in any of this. Does this make sense to
you that are? If so could you not make ship gravity plates by creating
a wave form that cancels out the gravity wave thus sucking you to the
ships floor?
Douglas  E Knapp

From magick.crow at gmail.com  Thu Jan  3 11:15:09 2008
From: magick.crow at gmail.com (Knapp)
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 19:15:09 +0100
Subject: [TML] The Making of SolarCreations
Message-ID: <f495db580801031015u4c46eee8o70a071780430df77@mail.gmail.com>

I started working on the program to make solar systems and suns.
The first problem I ran into is What is the correct probability of the
stars and their features?
My format is easy to use.
['A',1],['F',3],['G',8],['K',14],['White Dwarf',10],['M',49],['Brown
Dwarf',13],['Giant',1],['Special',1]

Might look a little crazy but it is easy.

Type A star 1 percent is ['A', 1.0]
You can have as many types as you like. That one on the end "Special"
is a pain and should be replaced by a bunch of stuff at small
percentages.
The only limit is that the full list must add up to 100. You can use
numbers like 0.01 also, the precision is set to this but can be
changed with ease.
What would you experts out there choose for the right settings and
numbers? The one in the example is from Worldgen.pdf
Same question goes for all the stuff needed to make a solar system. I
am just using straight Worldgen numbers now.

It would also be very easy to use this program to make up and thing
that made with lists of percentages. They could also be put in a text
file in groups to make up complex anythings.

Thanks.
Douglas E Knapp

From johnson at pharmacy.arizona.edu  Thu Jan  3 11:14:41 2008
From: johnson at pharmacy.arizona.edu (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 11:14:41 -0700
Subject: [TML] Noncanonical TU 3D.
In-Reply-To: <f495db580801030048s3d08ebb7t51e3be9e452f5ff1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5f542a9e0801010206s17708912lbc1c700de8edbe89@mail.gmail.com>
	<C39F8C6C.117D7%jursamaj@yahoo.com>
	<5f542a9e0801011411v6c60c600j9c37abba8a6e4a57@mail.gmail.com>
	<e67676d0801011454w66915104kb1d37f92eecb7356@mail.gmail.com>
	<5f542a9e0801021647k7613a6f4q3522f6ba00787f58@mail.gmail.com>
	<f495db580801030048s3d08ebb7t51e3be9e452f5ff1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9C42C2C0-52DB-4BDB-ADD1-5525EBD8AAAE@pharmacy.arizona.edu>


On Jan 3, 2008, at 1:48 AM, Knapp wrote:
>
> I am looking into using worldgen.pdf paper to write a program to make
> systems. Any thoughts on that?
> I would be happy to share it with anyone here. I will only need it as
> a one shot deal.

Not without a clue as to what you're talking about...Google did not  
come up with a hit for that file. Got a source?




-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From garry.e.ward at worldnet.att.net  Thu Jan  3 11:20:26 2008
From: garry.e.ward at worldnet.att.net (Garry Ward)
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 13:20:26 -0500
Subject: [TML] And you thought it was hot
References: <000001c84e2f$a8b060e0$0300a8c0@skaran>
Message-ID: <000a01c84e35$5441f0e0$68284b0c@YOURFEDDA97C02>


----- Original Message ----- 
>From: "Antony Farrell" <skaran at bordernet.com.au>
>To: "'The Traveller Mailing List'" <tml at travellercentral.com>
>Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 12:39 PM
>Subject: [TML] And you thought it was hot
>

>Todays temperature (3 January 2008) from the town of Northam. This is about
>27km from where I live so is a good indication of temperatures here.
>
>NORTHAM Thu, Jan 3
>
>44.8?C
>
>This are was described as a furnace in the 1860s before global warming set
>in, really looking forward to the climate here warming up further.
>Incidently the highest temperatures usually occur in February here.

and here I am on the western edge of Lake Erie, Ohio, USA at -13.3 C

Garry
>
>Antony Farrell
>Bakers Hill (near Northam)
>Western Australia
>
>No virus found in this outgoing message.
>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.13/1207 - Release Date: 2/01/2008
>11:29 AM


_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML at travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml



From ajackson at iii.com  Thu Jan  3 11:38:34 2008
From: ajackson at iii.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2008 10:38:34 -0800
Subject: [TML] Is gravity backwards?
In-Reply-To: <f495db580801031004y1600b728u7e5ecdf13d2f7ad4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f495db580801031004y1600b728u7e5ecdf13d2f7ad4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <477D2BAA.6050404@iii.com>

Knapp wrote:
> http://www.biochem.szote.u-szeged.hu/astrojan/gravity.htm
> I read this but am not trained in any of this. Does this make sense to
> you that are?

This looks like a fairly typical crank theory. It's not even accurately 
describing the theory it's criticizing, and the alternate theory doesn't 
make any sense.

From magick.crow at gmail.com  Thu Jan  3 11:23:31 2008
From: magick.crow at gmail.com (Knapp)
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 19:23:31 +0100
Subject: [TML] Noncanonical TU 3D.
In-Reply-To: <9C42C2C0-52DB-4BDB-ADD1-5525EBD8AAAE@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <5f542a9e0801010206s17708912lbc1c700de8edbe89@mail.gmail.com>
	<C39F8C6C.117D7%jursamaj@yahoo.com>
	<5f542a9e0801011411v6c60c600j9c37abba8a6e4a57@mail.gmail.com>
	<e67676d0801011454w66915104kb1d37f92eecb7356@mail.gmail.com>
	<5f542a9e0801021647k7613a6f4q3522f6ba00787f58@mail.gmail.com>
	<f495db580801030048s3d08ebb7t51e3be9e452f5ff1@mail.gmail.com>
	<9C42C2C0-52DB-4BDB-ADD1-5525EBD8AAAE@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <f495db580801031023g38295aa1s57e2e1f66e8f6588@mail.gmail.com>

On Jan 3, 2008 7:14 PM, Bruce Johnson <johnson at pharmacy.arizona.edu> wrote:
>
> On Jan 3, 2008, at 1:48 AM, Knapp wrote:
> >
> > I am looking into using worldgen.pdf paper to write a program to make
> > systems. Any thoughts on that?
> > I would be happy to share it with anyone here. I will only need it as
> > a one shot deal.
>
> Not without a clue as to what you're talking about...Google did not
> come up with a hit for that file. Got a source?
> --
> Bruce Johnson
> University of Arizona
> College of Pharmacy
> Information Technology Group
>
> Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs
Yes, sorry, Google does not see it unless you search with the name. I
had a hard time refinding it after people here on the list showed it
to me. It is also interesting to start cutting back into the http and
seeing the other traveler stuff on that sight.
Tyge Sj?strand
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&ct=res&cd=1&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.trisen.com%2Fsol%2Fdownloads%2Fwg.pdf&ei=WSd9R5jIBo3GnAOsqbDnDQ&usg=AFQjCNH9asMI5KlZWWl7GslODPZANVQaEw&sig2=q5IkPBXTsNN67ykdBZ2Ltg
Douglas E Knapp

From garry.e.ward at worldnet.att.net  Thu Jan  3 11:25:24 2008
From: garry.e.ward at worldnet.att.net (Garry Ward)
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 13:25:24 -0500
Subject: [TML] Is gravity backwards?
References: <f495db580801031004y1600b728u7e5ecdf13d2f7ad4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001201c84e36$04c307b0$68284b0c@YOURFEDDA97C02>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Knapp" <magick.crow at gmail.com>
To: "The Traveller Mailing List" <tml at travellercentral.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 1:04 PM
Subject: [TML] Is gravity backwards?


> http://www.biochem.szote.u-szeged.hu/astrojan/gravity.htm
> I read this but am not trained in any of this. Does this make sense to
> you that are? If so could you not make ship gravity plates by creating
> a wave form that cancels out the gravity wave thus sucking you to the
> ships floor?
never liked the idea of gravitons.

Prefer the notion that gravity is the effect of space/time being bent by 
mass which casuses stuff to roll down the curve.

Garry
> Douglas  E Knapp
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML at travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 



From johnson at pharmacy.arizona.edu  Thu Jan  3 11:31:19 2008
From: johnson at pharmacy.arizona.edu (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 11:31:19 -0700
Subject: [TML] Is gravity backwards?
In-Reply-To: <f495db580801031004y1600b728u7e5ecdf13d2f7ad4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f495db580801031004y1600b728u7e5ecdf13d2f7ad4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DAC7A5F2-B4F6-4777-819C-F993EC74A907@pharmacy.arizona.edu>


On Jan 3, 2008, at 11:04 AM, Knapp wrote:

> http://www.biochem.szote.u-szeged.hu/astrojan/gravity.htm
> I read this but am not trained in any of this. Does this make sense to
> you that are?

The first words that pop into my mind is "KooKoo for Cocoa Puffs!"

They're using lots of words that sound impressive, but they haven't  
got the slightest idea of what they're talking about.

It appears that he's pushing a theory of gravitaion that involves an  
exchange of 'gravitons'.

The 'rubber sheet' model (Mass distorts space/time in its immediate  
vicinity in proportion to itself, things 'fall' down hill in gravity  
wells) accounts quite well for gravity without inventing phantom  
particles.

May as well delve into this guys website:

(WARNING!!! SERIOUS, HIGHLY CONCENTRATED CRAZY!)

<http://www.timecube.com/>

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From magick.crow at gmail.com  Thu Jan  3 11:49:06 2008
From: magick.crow at gmail.com (Knapp)
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 19:49:06 +0100
Subject: [TML] Is gravity backwards?
In-Reply-To: <DAC7A5F2-B4F6-4777-819C-F993EC74A907@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <f495db580801031004y1600b728u7e5ecdf13d2f7ad4@mail.gmail.com>
	<DAC7A5F2-B4F6-4777-819C-F993EC74A907@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <f495db580801031049k19b72fbke6161ca682e868d1@mail.gmail.com>

On Jan 3, 2008 7:31 PM, Bruce Johnson <johnson at pharmacy.arizona.edu> wrote:
>
> On Jan 3, 2008, at 11:04 AM, Knapp wrote:
>
> > http://www.biochem.szote.u-szeged.hu/astrojan/gravity.htm
> > I read this but am not trained in any of this. Does this make sense to
> > you that are?
>
> The first words that pop into my mind is "KooKoo for Cocoa Puffs!"
>
> They're using lots of words that sound impressive, but they haven't
> got the slightest idea of what they're talking about.
>
> It appears that he's pushing a theory of gravitaion that involves an
> exchange of 'gravitons'.
>
> The 'rubber sheet' model (Mass distorts space/time in its immediate
> vicinity in proportion to itself, things 'fall' down hill in gravity
> wells) accounts quite well for gravity without inventing phantom
> particles.
>
> May as well delve into this guys website:
>
> (WARNING!!! SERIOUS, HIGHLY CONCENTRATED CRAZY!)
>
> <http://www.timecube.com/>
>
> --
> Bruce Johnson

That is what I thought but it does sound good.

"Prefer the notion that gravity is the effect of space/time being bent by
mass which causes stuff to roll down the curve."

This is what I learned but what do I know about it.
Douglas E Knapp

From ajackson at iii.com  Thu Jan  3 12:39:02 2008
From: ajackson at iii.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2008 11:39:02 -0800
Subject: [TML] Is gravity backwards?
In-Reply-To: <DAC7A5F2-B4F6-4777-819C-F993EC74A907@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <f495db580801031004y1600b728u7e5ecdf13d2f7ad4@mail.gmail.com>
	<DAC7A5F2-B4F6-4777-819C-F993EC74A907@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <477D39D6.7010508@iii.com>

Bruce Johnson wrote:

> It appears that he's pushing a theory of gravitaion that involves an  
> exchange of 'gravitons'.

To be fair, the virtual photon exchange theory of electromagnetism is 
perfectly workable, so using virtual gravitons to account for gravity is 
not wacky. However, if he doesn't have a problem with electrostatic 
attraction, he shouldn't have a problem with gravity.

From jursamaj at yahoo.com  Thu Jan  3 12:29:52 2008
From: jursamaj at yahoo.com (Jerry W Barrington)
Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2008 14:29:52 -0500
Subject: [TML] TML Digest, Vol 2007, Issue 312 (yes, really)
In-Reply-To: <b8752ebd0801030919p60a8422dk52f958aac7a7f7c4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C3A2A1E0.11847%jursamaj@yahoo.com>

On 1/3/08 12:19 PM, "Jim Kundert" <gypsycomet at gmail.com> wrote:

> "On 12/30/07, tml-request at travellercentral.com
> <tml-request at travellercentral.com> wrote"
> 
> And that was the last Digest I saw.  Was there a 313, or a v2008 Issue 1?

I switched to individual emails after #306, Dec 23.  But when I was getting
the digest, each had around 60 emails, which would go back to about midnight
Dec 30 from when you posted this message.  (It's actually more like 100k of
message text, but I can't figure that from my archive.)


From jursamaj at yahoo.com  Thu Jan  3 13:25:38 2008
From: jursamaj at yahoo.com (Jerry W Barrington)
Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2008 15:25:38 -0500
Subject: [TML] Is gravity backwards?
In-Reply-To: <477D39D6.7010508@iii.com>
Message-ID: <C3A2AEF2.1184C%jursamaj@yahoo.com>

On 1/3/08 2:39 PM, "Anthony Jackson" <ajackson at iii.com> wrote:

> Bruce Johnson wrote:
> 
>> It appears that he's pushing a theory of gravitaion that involves an
>> exchange of 'gravitons'.
> 
> To be fair, the virtual photon exchange theory of electromagnetism is
> perfectly workable, so using virtual gravitons to account for gravity is
> not wacky. However, if he doesn't have a problem with electrostatic
> attraction, he shouldn't have a problem with gravity.

If you go to his Pushing Gravity link down at the bottom, you'll also see
that plate tectonics is false.  The earth has cracks because it is growing
by absorbing all those gravitons!

My biggest problem with gravitons (besides their incompatibility with
relativity) is the shadowing.  As a spacecraft travels near Earth/Moon, it
is pulled by both.  Oh, and the Sun for that matter.  When it goes behind
any one object (in relation to the others) the gravity would change.

Or look at it this way: the Earth and Moon are both pulled towards the Sun.
When the Moon is near the Sun in the sky, the pulls add together.  During an
eclipse, some of the Sun's pull should be cancelled by the Moon being in the
way.  That would be measurable.

For that matter, the formula relating gravity to distance should be
*measurably* different under gravitons.  That would change orbital dynamics.
Yet our formulae for orbital dynamics work.  Ergo, gravitons are false.


From jursamaj at yahoo.com  Thu Jan  3 13:29:55 2008
From: jursamaj at yahoo.com (Jerry W Barrington)
Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2008 15:29:55 -0500
Subject: [TML] And you thought it was hot
In-Reply-To: <000a01c84e35$5441f0e0$68284b0c@YOURFEDDA97C02>
Message-ID: <C3A2AFF3.1184E%jursamaj@yahoo.com>

On 1/3/08 1:20 PM, "Garry Ward" <garry.e.ward at worldnet.att.net> wrote:

>> From: "Antony Farrell" <skaran at bordernet.com.au>
>> 
>> Todays temperature (3 January 2008) from the town of Northam. This is about
>> 27km from where I live so is a good indication of temperatures here.
>> 
>> NORTHAM Thu, Jan 3
>> 
>> 44.8?C
>> 
>> This are was described as a furnace in the 1860s before global warming set
>> in, really looking forward to the climate here warming up further.
>> Incidently the highest temperatures usually occur in February here.

Well, remember that it isn't simply an equal warming over the globe.  The
global average will go up, but some places may cool.  And some places will
get wetter, others dryer.

> and here I am on the western edge of Lake Erie, Ohio, USA at -13.3 C

I've got -9 C here in Napoleon (WSW of Toledo).


From johnson at pharmacy.arizona.edu  Thu Jan  3 13:42:47 2008
From: johnson at pharmacy.arizona.edu (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 13:42:47 -0700
Subject: [TML] And you thought it was hot
In-Reply-To: <C3A2AFF3.1184E%jursamaj@yahoo.com>
References: <C3A2AFF3.1184E%jursamaj@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <773A66E8-C62C-4D35-9FB3-819785560F1B@pharmacy.arizona.edu>


On Jan 3, 2008, at 1:29 PM, Jerry W Barrington wrote:

>>> 44.8?C
>>>
>>> This are was described as a furnace in the 1860s before global  
>>> warming set
>>> in, really looking forward to the climate here warming up further.
>>> Incidently the highest temperatures usually occur in February here.
>
> Well, remember that it isn't simply an equal warming over the  
> globe.  The
> global average will go up, but some places may cool.  And some  
> places will
> get wetter, others dryer.



Note also that global warming *increases* the temperature differential  
between the equator and the poles.

Weather is the end result of the equilibrium; ergo, yes, global  
warming can easily cause more severe  winter weather.

Still 44.8 C is effing HOT! We only hit that a few times every few  
years here in the American SW.

Phoenix gets hotter due to urban heat island effect; they hit those  
temps more routinely; our highs tend to be more on the order of  
105-108 max. (40-42C)

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From johnson at pharmacy.arizona.edu  Thu Jan  3 13:54:25 2008
From: johnson at pharmacy.arizona.edu (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 13:54:25 -0700
Subject: [TML] Noncanonical TU 3D.
In-Reply-To: <f495db580801031023g38295aa1s57e2e1f66e8f6588@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5f542a9e0801010206s17708912lbc1c700de8edbe89@mail.gmail.com>
	<C39F8C6C.117D7%jursamaj@yahoo.com>
	<5f542a9e0801011411v6c60c600j9c37abba8a6e4a57@mail.gmail.com>
	<e67676d0801011454w66915104kb1d37f92eecb7356@mail.gmail.com>
	<5f542a9e0801021647k7613a6f4q3522f6ba00787f58@mail.gmail.com>
	<f495db580801030048s3d08ebb7t51e3be9e452f5ff1@mail.gmail.com>
	<9C42C2C0-52DB-4BDB-ADD1-5525EBD8AAAE@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
	<f495db580801031023g38295aa1s57e2e1f66e8f6588@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <410F0EB8-D372-4788-B74C-6556F5E06449@pharmacy.arizona.edu>


On Jan 3, 2008, at 11:23 AM, Knapp wrote:

> On Jan 3, 2008 7:14 PM, Bruce Johnson <johnson at pharmacy.arizona.edu>  
> wrote:
>>
>> On Jan 3, 2008, at 1:48 AM, Knapp wrote:
>>>
>>> I am looking into using worldgen.pdf paper to write a program to  
>>> make
>>> systems. Any thoughts on that?
>>> I would be happy to share it with anyone here. I will only need it  
>>> as
>>> a one shot deal.
>>
>> Not without a clue as to what you're talking about...Google did not
>> come up with a hit for that file. Got a source?
>> --
>> Bruce Johnson
>> University of Arizona
>> College of Pharmacy
>> Information Technology Group
>>
>> Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs
> Yes, sorry, Google does not see it unless you search with the name. I
> had a hard time refinding it after people here on the list showed it
> to me. It is also interesting to start cutting back into the http and
> seeing the other traveler stuff on that sight.

Note, the file in question is wg.pdf, not worldgen.pdf.

Now that I have the link, it looks interesting, but since he merely  
gives general 'this was inspired by' references, I can't comment on  
it's accuracy. It looks perfectly reasonable.

Looks pretty simple to use these rules to crank out a program to  
generate systems; the best way would be to fire up the program, crank  
out a few hundred or thousand systems and see what it makes.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From ajackson at iii.com  Thu Jan  3 14:32:32 2008
From: ajackson at iii.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2008 13:32:32 -0800
Subject: [TML] Is gravity backwards?
In-Reply-To: <C3A2AEF2.1184C%jursamaj@yahoo.com>
References: <C3A2AEF2.1184C%jursamaj@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <477D5470.3050906@iii.com>

Jerry W Barrington wrote:

> My biggest problem with gravitons (besides their incompatibility with
> relativity) is the shadowing.

Why do you think that mass would cause shadowing? There's no shadowing 
associated with electrostatic attraction.

> For that matter, the formula relating gravity to distance should be
> *measurably* different under gravitons.  That would change orbital dynamics.
> Yet our formulae for orbital dynamics work.  Ergo, gravitons are false.

Um... while we don't know how to integrate relativity with particle 
physics, graviton theory works just fine for Newtonian gravity.

From garry.e.ward at worldnet.att.net  Thu Jan  3 14:28:10 2008
From: garry.e.ward at worldnet.att.net (Garry Ward)
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 16:28:10 -0500
Subject: [TML] And you thought it was hot
References: <C3A2AFF3.1184E%jursamaj@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <000c01c84e4f$8e119900$042e4b0c@YOURFEDDA97C02>


----- Original Message ----- 
>From: "Jerry W Barrington" <jursamaj at yahoo.com>
>To: "TML" <tml at travellercentral.com>
>Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 3:29 PM
>Subject: Re: [TML] And you thought it was hot
>

>On 1/3/08 1:20 PM, "Garry Ward" <garry.e.ward at worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
>>> From: "Antony Farrell" <skaran at bordernet.com.au>
>>>
>>> Todays temperature (3 January 2008) from the town of Northam. This is 
>>> about
>>> 27km from where I live so is a good indication of temperatures here.
>>>
>>> NORTHAM Thu, Jan 3
>>>
>>> 44.8?C
>>>
>>> This are was described as a furnace in the 1860s before global warming 
>>> set
>>> in, really looking forward to the climate here warming up further.
>>> Incidently the highest temperatures usually occur in February here.
>
>Well, remember that it isn't simply an equal warming over the globe.  The
>global average will go up, but some places may cool.  And some places will
>get wetter, others dryer.
>
>> and here I am on the western edge of Lake Erie, Ohio, USA at -13.3 C
>
>I've got -9 C here in Napoleon (WSW of Toledo).
Heh?

I didn't realize that you were just down the road a piece...

You going to Bashcon  at UT next month?

Garry

_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML at travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml



From tim at little-possums.net  Thu Jan  3 16:24:14 2008
From: tim at little-possums.net (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 10:24:14 +1100
Subject: [TML] Is gravity backwards?
In-Reply-To: <f495db580801031004y1600b728u7e5ecdf13d2f7ad4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f495db580801031004y1600b728u7e5ecdf13d2f7ad4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20080103232414.GA28226@soprano.little-possums.net>

On Thu, Jan 03, 2008 at 07:04:29PM +0100, Knapp wrote:
> http://www.biochem.szote.u-szeged.hu/astrojan/gravity.htm
> I read this but am not trained in any of this. Does this make sense
> to you that are?

It's pretty much just uninformed rambling.  None of the "explanations"
for "unsolved mysteries" actually work, and contradict a lot of actual
observations.  Most of the so-called mysteries or impossibilities are
simply misunderstandings by the writer.


- Tim

From darvedd at gmail.com  Thu Jan  3 16:51:57 2008
From: darvedd at gmail.com (Michael Jenkins)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 08:51:57 +0900
Subject: [TML] And you thought it was hot
In-Reply-To: <000001c84e2f$a8b060e0$0300a8c0@skaran>
References: <2B2E711E-EC26-4F75-9C9F-E4B8D0319E8F@mac.com>
	<000001c84e2f$a8b060e0$0300a8c0@skaran>
Message-ID: <1832b5750801031551nf8cb82fi6d9f9dbb5fd92a6b@mail.gmail.com>

On 04/01/2008, Antony Farrell <skaran at bordernet.com.au> wrote:
> Todays temperature (3 January 2008) from the town of Northam. This is about
> 27km from where I live so is a good indication of temperatures here.
>
> NORTHAM Thu, Jan 3 - 44.8?C
>
> This area was described as a furnace in the 1860s before global warming set
> in, really looking forward to the climate here warming up further.
> Incidently the highest temperatures usually occur in February here.

Definitely warmish!

Perth on Boxing Day was 44.2?C - 45?C at Perth Airport, about 15km
east(ish) of Perth. I'm about 12-13 km east, but somewhat north.
Perth's hottest December day on record. Northam that day was "only"
43.9!   :-)

Yesterday (3 Jan) was something like 41?C in Perth.

45?C is 113?F, 40?C is 104?F.

At those temperatures the Sun is like a hammer when you go outside.
Wide-brimmed hats highly recommended.

Northam is about 75-80 km east of Perth. When the wind is blowing from
the east (a hot wind from the inland), being closer to the coast
doesn't matter much, but being closer to the coast does make a big
difference when the sea breeze kicks in late afternoon-ish, give or
take.

-- 
Regards,
Michael Jenkins
--
You cannot deny the humanity of another human being
Without also denying humanity in yourself
--

From webmaster at travellercentral.com  Thu Jan  3 16:59:51 2008
From: webmaster at travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 16:59:51 -0700
Subject: [TML] TML Digest, Vol 2007, Issue 312 (yes, really)
In-Reply-To: <b8752ebd0801030919p60a8422dk52f958aac7a7f7c4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b8752ebd0801030919p60a8422dk52f958aac7a7f7c4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3677825F-3B3E-4A57-9FD3-790F6D16D6E4@travellercentral.com>


On Jan 3, 2008, at 10:19 AM, Jim Kundert wrote:

> "On 12/30/07, tml-request at travellercentral.com
> <tml-request at travellercentral.com> wrote"
>
> And that was the last Digest I saw.  Was there a 313, or a v2008  
> Issue 1?
>

Yes,V 2008 issue 1 went out today

Tod

From ybrekp at verizon.net  Thu Jan  3 17:31:42 2008
From: ybrekp at verizon.net (Paul Kerby)
Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2008 18:31:42 -0600
Subject: [TML] Items on ebay
References: <C39F3560.117C7%jursamaj@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <008f01c84e69$2e57ae90$6701a8c0@LENOVOFBC731BE>

Sorry for wasting badwidth.  I have listed several traveller related items 
on ebay.  Follow the link below if you are interested.

http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZybrek

I'll be adding some more latter, including some Silent Death minatures that 
can be used for PP

thanks 


From tim at little-possums.net  Thu Jan  3 17:49:31 2008
From: tim at little-possums.net (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 11:49:31 +1100
Subject: [TML] Is gravity backwards?
In-Reply-To: <DAC7A5F2-B4F6-4777-819C-F993EC74A907@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <f495db580801031004y1600b728u7e5ecdf13d2f7ad4@mail.gmail.com>
	<DAC7A5F2-B4F6-4777-819C-F993EC74A907@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <20080104004931.GB28226@soprano.little-possums.net>

On Thu, Jan 03, 2008 at 11:31:19AM -0700, Bruce Johnson wrote:
> The 'rubber sheet' model (Mass distorts space/time in its immediate
> vicinity in proportion to itself, things 'fall' down hill in gravity
> wells)

Gahhh :-(

The 'rubber sheet' model is quite a popular analogy for the curved
spacetime of general relativity, but one that is universally applied
incorrectly in a way that misses the whole point.

The central insight of general relativity is that all the known
effects of gravity can be modelled without invoking any extra type of
force at all.  The usual rubber sheet analogy has a 'supergravity'
that causes masses to fall into the wells (i.e. using gravity to
explain gravity), but nothing like this exists in GR.


In GR, all objects in free-fall move in the curved-space equivalent of
straight lines.  The 'force of attraction' is just an illusion caused
by the fact that in a curved space, lines that start out parallel do
not remain parallel.

By analogy, consider two lines drawn due north from the equator (of
the Earth, or an orange, whatever you find easier to think about).
They start off parallel, but will meet at the north pole.  To remain
at a constant distance, at least one of the lines would need to be
curved from its straight-ahead path.  In the analogy, the distance
along the line is time, the line itself is a path of motion, and
a curve in a line is an externally-imposed acceleration.

It is rather more complex in the case of gravity since matter
influences the local curvature, the curvature has its own laws, and
there are 3 space dimensions + 1 time instead of just 1+1.  However,
the underlying principles are almost identical.


- Tim

From tomnaro at yahoo.com  Thu Jan  3 18:06:55 2008
From: tomnaro at yahoo.com (Tom Naro)
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 17:06:55 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] xBoat economics
Message-ID: <907355.58368.qm@web53707.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

shadow at shadowgard.com" shadow at shadowgard.com wrote:

>Sure, but my point was that unless those x-boats are carrying 
>insanely small amounts of data (relative to what even current storage 
>technologies would allow) at 1 Cr/msg, you are not merely covering 
>operating expenses, you are damn near buying the boat every trip.

>W've got things like ship costs and operating expenses from the 
>rules. And they don't run nearly high enough to justify that sort of 
>cost.

You are putting the cart before the horse. Your income expectations are much too high.   You have calculated the income base on the storage capacity.  Just because your ship can carry billions of messages - does not mean that there *ARE* billions of messages to carry.  Capacity does not equate to income.  The population of the world should determine the number of message that are available for pick-up.  If you examine the populations of the planets where the x-boat hubs exist you will see that the populations (and the corresponding amount of messages) are relatively low.  They are just not large enough to support 150 billion messages per trip.  I pulled a sample quadrant from Ley Sector, since it happens to be the one I am currently modeling.  Of the 22 x-boat hubs, only one had an earth-size population, most had only millions of people, several had only hundreds.  Just what percentage of the population would need x-mail?  20%? 30%?  Even if all the
 nearby systems feed into the hubs, there are just not enough people to support the number of messages  you have proposed.  The potential income you have calculated is unlikely to materialize.

You have been working the problem from only one end.  (The wrong end in my view.)  If you can make a case that there are billions of x-mails sent from planet to planet - please do so.  However the argument that data storage capacity has anything to do with how often people talk to each other is just going to fall flat.

Your main objection to the 1 cr fee is that it results in making "TOO MUCH" money.  That position just not reasonable. Any enterprise seeks to maximize profits.  The Imperium is not some charitable institution, there should be no expectation that they need to offer their services at the lowest possible cost.  I don't need to justify that 1 cr/msg - I only need to show that there is a reasonable expectation that an individual will pay the fee.  You pay it because they told you to pay it. It is the same as postage stamps or gasoline tax.
 
Given that the alternative is to get on a ship (at 1000 Cr, 8000 Cr, or 10000 Cr) and deliver the message yourself,  the small fee of 1 cr still seems reasonable.

>> Just how much does it cost to operate the X-mail system in the first
>> place.  Lets look at that further.... 

Your estimation of the operating costs are much lower than mine.  The x-boat system is made up of much more than just ships and ship operating costs.  There are also ground facilities (x-boat offices), and personnel (not every scout is a pilot, somebody has to keep track of the paperwork) and many, many other costs that are not covered in the rule books.  (Now since there are no rules for ground facility costs or non-starcrew salaries, you are just going to have to use your imagination to fill in the gaps that the rules do not cover.)  A business must account for all income and expenditures.  This is basic economics.

>the *Imperial* traffic pays for the jump and the maintenance.

That is not a reasonable assumption - you are "inventing" income to match your technology.  Since the scout service (and therefore the entire x-boat system) is a direct branch of the Imperial government, there really should be no expectation that any sort of "official imperial" messages would generate income of any kind.  From a strict accounting perspective the "Imperial" traffic is an expense - not an income.   The important and critical "official Imperial" message traffic would be carried by the Imperial Navy courier service (which operates jump-6 couriers).  In any case, there is no income from "Imperial" traffic.  The income from the x-boat system must come from commercial users.
 
Perhaps you should look at the income from another aspect.  What could the scout service do with that income? Could that income possibly be enough to fund other jobs done by the Scout Service.  Perhaps the X-boat income provides the entire operating budget for all of the the Imperial Scout Service.  That would mean that the scout service does not need to be funded by other imperial taxes.  Someone needs to pay for all that exploration and for all the ships that don't carry x-mail.  I know that this seems hard to believe but a bureaucracy can actually pay for itself.


      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Looking for last minute shopping deals?  
Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.  http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping

From tim at little-possums.net  Thu Jan  3 18:08:38 2008
From: tim at little-possums.net (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 12:08:38 +1100
Subject: [TML] The Making of SolarCreations
In-Reply-To: <f495db580801031015u4c46eee8o70a071780430df77@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f495db580801031015u4c46eee8o70a071780430df77@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20080104010838.GC28226@soprano.little-possums.net>

On Thu, Jan 03, 2008 at 07:15:09PM +0100, Knapp wrote:
> ['A',1],['F',3],['G',8],['K',14],['White Dwarf',10],['M',49],['Brown
> Dwarf',13],['Giant',1],['Special',1]
[...]
> What would you experts out there choose for the right settings and
> numbers?

Those look not unreasonable for our stellar neighbourhood.  The
numbers would vary in other settings, e.g. the galactic halo, globular
clusters, stellar "nursery" clusters and such.

It also depends what you mean by the 'right' settings.  Most
realistic, or likely to give the most fun for a game?


- Tim

From stosh at sympatico.ca  Thu Jan  3 18:40:04 2008
From: stosh at sympatico.ca (Michael Stasica)
Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2008 20:40:04 -0500
Subject: [TML] And you thought it was hot
In-Reply-To: <773A66E8-C62C-4D35-9FB3-819785560F1B@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <C3A2AFF3.1184E%jursamaj@yahoo.com>
	<773A66E8-C62C-4D35-9FB3-819785560F1B@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <op.t4dtk61b4unwo7@your-92ff8e5773>

On Thu, 03 Jan 2008 15:42:47 -0500, Bruce Johnson  
<johnson at pharmacy.arizona.edu> wrote:

>
> On Jan 3, 2008, at 1:29 PM, Jerry W Barrington wrote:
>
>>>> 44.8?C
>>>>
>>>> This are was described as a furnace in the 1860s before global
>>>> warming set
>>>> in, really looking forward to the climate here warming up further.
>>>> Incidently the highest temperatures usually occur in February here.
>>
>> Well, remember that it isn't simply an equal warming over the
>> globe.  The
>> global average will go up, but some places may cool.  And some
>> places will
>> get wetter, others dryer.
>
>
>
> Note also that global warming *increases* the temperature differential
> between the equator and the poles.
>
> Weather is the end result of the equilibrium; ergo, yes, global
> warming can easily cause more severe  winter weather.
>
I live East of Lake Huron, great for Lake Effect snow. A higher average  
temp.
means less surface ice on the lake for more evaporation and More snowfall.  
:)

Unfortunately it also melts faster with the highs of 10C/ (50F)? that  
happen
more frequentely as well. :(

Every week is a crap shoot for cross country skiing or more cycling in the  
slush.

Michael

From tim at little-possums.net  Thu Jan  3 18:45:22 2008
From: tim at little-possums.net (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 12:45:22 +1100
Subject: [TML] xBoat economics
In-Reply-To: <907355.58368.qm@web53707.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <907355.58368.qm@web53707.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20080104014522.GD28226@soprano.little-possums.net>

On Thu, Jan 03, 2008 at 05:06:55PM -0800, Tom Naro wrote:
> The potential income you have calculated is unlikely to materialize.

You do realise the whole *point* was to show that the price per
message was insanely high and should be drastically lowered, right?
It's a reductio ad absurdum.


> However the argument that data storage capacity has anything to do
> with how often people talk to each other is just going to fall flat.

Not at all, so long as you're actually following the reasoning and not
just what you want to read.


> Your main objection to the 1 cr fee is that it results in making
> "TOO MUCH" money.

As I thought, you misread the objection.


> That position just not reasonable. Any enterprise seeks to maximize
> profits.

Enterprises also seek out niches where they can prosper.  Such a niche
can be found by retailing messages, and aggregating them into the
possible 1 Cr wholesale fee that the Imperium might charge.

Thus by the Imperium charging so much per message, they miss out on an
opportunity for profit.


> Given that the alternative is to get on a ship (at 1000 Cr, 8000 Cr,
> or 10000 Cr) and deliver the message yourself, the small fee of 1 cr
> still seems reasonable.

No, the alternative is to give your message to someone who is already
sending a message for 1 Cr, to include your data into theirs without
giving another cent to the Imperium.  The 'someone else' obviously
can't charge any more than 1 Cr, but can certainly make a profit
charging much less, and they have to compete with other people who
might charge less than they do.

Now you have to explain how and why this cannot happen.


- Tim

From kellys at efn.org  Thu Jan  3 20:54:05 2008
From: kellys at efn.org (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2008 19:54:05 -0800
Subject: [TML] xBoat economics
In-Reply-To: <20080104014522.GD28226@soprano.little-possums.net>
References: <907355.58368.qm@web53707.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<20080104014522.GD28226@soprano.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20080103195225.01b63600@pop.efn.org>

Or you can just throw up your hands, acknowledge that these numbers were 
all pulled out of... *cough* the AIR by people making a GAME thirty years 
ago, and either accept them on that basis and play the game /or/ come up 
with a different set of numbers that you like better based on what we know now.


--------------
Kelly St.Clair     Official sponsor of the Galactic Frungy League
kellys at efn.org             "FRUNGY:  The Sport of KINGS!"


From pare at pieni.net  Thu Jan  3 22:09:42 2008
From: pare at pieni.net (Mikko Parviainen)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 07:09:42 +0200
Subject: [TML] And you thought it was hot
In-Reply-To: <1832b5750801031551nf8cb82fi6d9f9dbb5fd92a6b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2B2E711E-EC26-4F75-9C9F-E4B8D0319E8F@mac.com>
	<000001c84e2f$a8b060e0$0300a8c0@skaran>
	<1832b5750801031551nf8cb82fi6d9f9dbb5fd92a6b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20080104050942.GQ20117@pieni.net>

On Fri, Jan 04, 2008 at 08:51:57AM +0900, Michael Jenkins wrote:
> Yesterday (3 Jan) was something like 41?C in Perth.
> 
> 45?C is 113?F, 40?C is 104?F.
> 
> At those temperatures the Sun is like a hammer when you go outside.
> Wide-brimmed hats highly recommended.

At least you Aussie make good hats - it's next to impossible trying
to find a nice, wide-brimmed hat here in Finland.

Yesterday I looked at how I can order a kangaroo Barmah hat. I bought one
a couple of years ago when we visited Australia, but mine has visibly
degraded by the daily use. Well, not in the winter, it's now -4?C here,
with a bit of snow on the ground, so it's a bit cold for that kind of
hat. 

It seems I can order one from the internet, so I think I'll do that.

-- 
Mikko Parviainen
http://www.iki.fi/pare/
http://mikkop.livejournal.com/

From jursamaj at yahoo.com  Thu Jan  3 22:58:23 2008
From: jursamaj at yahoo.com (Jerry W Barrington)
Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 00:58:23 -0500
Subject: [TML] Is gravity backwards?
In-Reply-To: <477D5470.3050906@iii.com>
Message-ID: <C3A3352F.1186C%jursamaj@yahoo.com>

On 1/3/08 4:32 PM, "Anthony Jackson" <ajackson at iii.com> wrote:

> Jerry W Barrington wrote:
> 
>> My biggest problem with gravitons (besides their incompatibility with
>> relativity) is the shadowing.
> 
> Why do you think that mass would cause shadowing? There's no shadowing
> associated with electrostatic attraction.

It's inherent in his theory.  Ok, look at the Sun and Earth.  By his theory,
gravitons are flying around everywhere, but the Sun is blocking some that
would hit Earth from that side.  That lack (a "shadow") allows the gravitons
on Earth's far side to push it towards Earth.  Now, Put the Moon close to
the Sun in Earth's sky.  Same logic applies, adding a bit more push that
direction.  Ok, now let the Moon slip directly in between (an eclipse).
Some of the shadow that was pulling Earth towards the Sun is now in fact the
shadow that is instead pulling the Moon.  This would reduce the pull on
Earth.

>> For that matter, the formula relating gravity to distance should be
>> *measurably* different under gravitons.  That would change orbital dynamics.
>> Yet our formulae for orbital dynamics work.  Ergo, gravitons are false.
> 
> Um... while we don't know how to integrate relativity with particle
> physics, graviton theory works just fine for Newtonian gravity.

Exactly.  We've already moved on from Newtonian to Einsteinian.  Graviton
theory doesn't address the mass increase and length & time decreases that
relativity does, and that have been experimentally verified.  Nor the excess
precession of Mercury, or the bending of light.


From jursamaj at yahoo.com  Thu Jan  3 23:01:05 2008
From: jursamaj at yahoo.com (Jerry W Barrington)
Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 01:01:05 -0500
Subject: [TML] And you thought it was hot
In-Reply-To: <000c01c84e4f$8e119900$042e4b0c@YOURFEDDA97C02>
Message-ID: <C3A335D1.1186E%jursamaj@yahoo.com>

On 1/3/08 4:28 PM, "Garry Ward" <garry.e.ward at worldnet.att.net> wrote:

>> From: "Jerry W Barrington" <jursamaj at yahoo.com>
> 
>> On 1/3/08 1:20 PM, "Garry Ward" <garry.e.ward at worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>> 
>>> and here I am on the western edge of Lake Erie, Ohio, USA at -13.3 C
>> 
>> I've got -9 C here in Napoleon (WSW of Toledo).
> Heh?
> 
> I didn't realize that you were just down the road a piece...
> 
> You going to Bashcon  at UT next month?

I wish I could.  At Walmart, I tend to work straight thru the weekends.  :P


From jursamaj at yahoo.com  Thu Jan  3 23:07:35 2008
From: jursamaj at yahoo.com (Jerry W Barrington)
Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 01:07:35 -0500
Subject: [TML] Noncanonical TU 3D.
In-Reply-To: <410F0EB8-D372-4788-B74C-6556F5E06449@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <C3A33757.11872%jursamaj@yahoo.com>

On 1/3/08 3:54 PM, "Bruce Johnson" <johnson at pharmacy.arizona.edu> wrote:

> On Jan 3, 2008, at 11:23 AM, Knapp wrote:
> 
>> On Jan 3, 2008 7:14 PM, Bruce Johnson <johnson at pharmacy.arizona.edu>
>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> On Jan 3, 2008, at 1:48 AM, Knapp wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> I am looking into using worldgen.pdf paper to write a program to
>>>> make
>>>> systems. Any thoughts on that?
>>>> I would be happy to share it with anyone here. I will only need it
>>>> as
>>>> a one shot deal.
>>> 
>>> Not without a clue as to what you're talking about...Google did not
>>> come up with a hit for that file. Got a source?
>>
>> Yes, sorry, Google does not see it unless you search with the name. I
>> had a hard time refinding it after people here on the list showed it
>> to me. It is also interesting to start cutting back into the http and
>> seeing the other traveler stuff on that sight.
> 
> Note, the file in question is wg.pdf, not worldgen.pdf.
> 
> Now that I have the link, it looks interesting, but since he merely
> gives general 'this was inspired by' references, I can't comment on
> it's accuracy. It looks perfectly reasonable.
> 
> Looks pretty simple to use these rules to crank out a program to
> generate systems; the best way would be to fire up the program, crank
> out a few hundred or thousand systems and see what it makes.

Ah, yes, I downloaded that one back on Dec 18.  :)

Definitely some useful reading, altho I still prefer the GURPS4:Space
method.


From jursamaj at yahoo.com  Thu Jan  3 23:12:38 2008
From: jursamaj at yahoo.com (Jerry W Barrington)
Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 01:12:38 -0500
Subject: [TML] The Making of SolarCreations
In-Reply-To: <20080104010838.GC28226@soprano.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <C3A33886.11874%jursamaj@yahoo.com>

On 1/3/08 8:08 PM, "Timothy Little" <tim at little-possums.net> wrote:

> On Thu, Jan 03, 2008 at 07:15:09PM +0100, Knapp wrote:
>> ['A',1],['F',3],['G',8],['K',14],['White Dwarf',10],['M',49],['Brown
>> Dwarf',13],['Giant',1],['Special',1]

Of course, a category like A spans a pretty large range in size and
brightness.  Even a specific class like G2V spans more than a factor of 2 in
brightness, depending on age.  That's why I'd rather generate a mass and an
age.

> [...]
>> What would you experts out there choose for the right settings and
>> numbers?
> 
> Those look not unreasonable for our stellar neighbourhood.  The
> numbers would vary in other settings, e.g. the galactic halo, globular
> clusters, stellar "nursery" clusters and such.
> 
> It also depends what you mean by the 'right' settings.  Most
> realistic, or likely to give the most fun for a game?

As that table shows, realistic means lots of M dwarfs.  Whether that is fun
for a game depends on what you do with them.  :)


From tocoons at gmail.com  Fri Jan  4 00:21:24 2008
From: tocoons at gmail.com (Thad Coons)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 02:21:24 -0500
Subject: [TML] Noncanonical TU 3D.
In-Reply-To: <C3A33757.11872%jursamaj@yahoo.com>
References: <410F0EB8-D372-4788-B74C-6556F5E06449@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
	<C3A33757.11872%jursamaj@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5f542a9e0801032321v11fd7552x1435e8c799fb3eb4@mail.gmail.com>

OK, for those interested, I now have a few pages of  Terran
Space<http://www.sapiencekb.com/traveller/trav3d.htm> attached to my
web site.
I'd be interested in hearing commentary and feedback: offlist will do.

From jursamaj at yahoo.com  Fri Jan  4 01:25:58 2008
From: jursamaj at yahoo.com (Jerry W Barrington)
Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 03:25:58 -0500
Subject: [TML] Noncanonical TU 3D.
In-Reply-To: <5f542a9e0801032321v11fd7552x1435e8c799fb3eb4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C3A357C6.1187B%jursamaj@yahoo.com>

On 1/4/08 2:21 AM, "Thad Coons" <tocoons at gmail.com> wrote:

> OK, for those interested, I now have a few pages of  Terran
> Space<http://www.sapiencekb.com/traveller/trav3d.htm> attached to my
> web site.
> I'd be interested in hearing commentary and feedback: offlist will do.

One question: why can't a ship carry enough fuel to make it to Wolf 359 in 2
jumps?  That would get around that limit.


From darvedd at gmail.com  Fri Jan  4 01:34:56 2008
From: darvedd at gmail.com (Michael Jenkins)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 17:34:56 +0900
Subject: [TML] And you thought it was hot
In-Reply-To: <20080104050942.GQ20117@pieni.net>
References: <2B2E711E-EC26-4F75-9C9F-E4B8D0319E8F@mac.com>
	<000001c84e2f$a8b060e0$0300a8c0@skaran>
	<1832b5750801031551nf8cb82fi6d9f9dbb5fd92a6b@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080104050942.GQ20117@pieni.net>
Message-ID: <1832b5750801040034o16a695dne57d704e443fabf6@mail.gmail.com>

On 04/01/2008, Mikko Parviainen <pare at pieni.net> wrote:
> On Fri, Jan 04, 2008 at 08:51:57AM +0900, Michael Jenkins wrote:
> > Yesterday (3 Jan) was something like 41?C in Perth.
> >
> > 45?C is 113?F, 40?C is 104?F.
> >
> > At those temperatures the Sun is like a hammer when you go outside.
> > Wide-brimmed hats highly recommended.
>
> At least you Aussie make good hats - it's next to impossible trying
> to find a nice, wide-brimmed hat here in Finland.
>
> Yesterday I looked at how I can order a kangaroo Barmah hat. I bought one
> a couple of years ago when we visited Australia, but mine has visibly
> degraded by the daily use. Well, not in the winter, it's now -4?C here,
> with a bit of snow on the ground, so it's a bit cold for that kind of
> hat.
>
> It seems I can order one from the internet, so I think I'll do that.

I like Akubra's:
http://www.akubra.com.au/

The best ones are made of felt.

Look me up on MSN Messenger if you're curious - you can see mine in my
picture. I was yakking when the photo was taken - typical!

-- 
Regards,
Michael Jenkins
--
You cannot deny the humanity of another human being
Without also denying humanity in yourself
--

From traveller at dhimaging.com.au  Fri Jan  4 02:10:41 2008
From: traveller at dhimaging.com.au (traveller at dhimaging.com.au)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 20:10:41 +1100
Subject: [TML] Joel brings the New Year in with a bang!
In-Reply-To: <C3A357C6.1187B%jursamaj@yahoo.com>
References: <5f542a9e0801032321v11fd7552x1435e8c799fb3eb4@mail.gmail.com>
	<C3A357C6.1187B%jursamaj@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <002c01c84eb1$af55e8c0$0e01ba40$@com.au>

Well, where to begin.

I left the house 30-Dec to get some groceries stocked up for New Years Eve
and New Years Day.

On the way back with a car full of groceries and some pizza for tea, the sun
was very low and brightly glaring in my windscreen.  I came up on a sharp
curve and standing in the middle of the road (but slightly in my lane of
traffic) was a giant 'roo.

I swerved to my left to avoid hitting it, but my left tyres went off the
bitumen (pavement) and I started losing control.   I then started steering
to the right to compensate and I tried to apply the clutch to let the car
slow down (rather than slamming the brakes on).

Good plan, but the car only sped up!  Little did I know that in my excited
state, I was actually applying full throttle to the accelerator rather than
applying the clutch. 

Sigh.

At one point, I was sliding backwards down my lane of traffic, slowly
spinning.  When I saw the edge of the road and the trees growing up from it,
I knew it was bad.  Then the Jeep hit (something), the view out the
windscreen tilted (hard), and I remember being ejected through either the
passenger side window or the removable hard top.  I'm still not sure which
one, but the amount of glass they plucked out of my head makes me think it
was the window.

I lost consciousness and when I woke up, I was lying on the hardtop, the
Jeep was on its side with the motor still running, and someone was telling
me "it's going to be okay, but for GOD'S sake - DON'T MOVE!".

A few days in Hospital (they were worried about the loss of consciousness,
the cuts on my head, and the massively large bruises all over my abdomen and
thighs), and they finally let me out.

The Jeep is a write-off (the frame is wrecked.  The wrecker operator says
the frame on a Jeep Wrangler is a very heavy duty type and for it to be
twisted and warped as bad as it was, it must have been a pretty bad
accident) - I have some car yards preparing quotes to buy what's left off of
me (for parts).  I had recently fallen on hard times and the car did not
have insurance.

I've secured financing for another vehicle (2nd hand, but in great shape and
with a 3-year bumper-to-bumper warranty) and I just drove it to the house
about an hour ago.  I went VERY slowly and when I went past the place I
wrecked the Jeep, I was amazed.  If I had gone off the other side of the
road, there was a 20-meter fall-off and it was wall-to-wall pine trees.  No
way would I have survived.  And to be honest, everyone keeps telling me that
normally if a person is ejected from a vehicle when it's involved in a very
bad accident, they don't survive to talk about it.

=sigh=

So, what did I miss?

-Joel



From traveller at dhimaging.com.au  Fri Jan  4 02:15:18 2008
From: traveller at dhimaging.com.au (traveller at dhimaging.com.au)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 20:15:18 +1100
Subject: [TML] Corp World - adventure seed by Joel Callahan
In-Reply-To: <3cf5ea650801012219m746d6c7au25275363b4bb01eb@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1832b5750712271735x53345bf5y4b70b6a7deae4900@mail.gmail.com>	<5aca9be50712281741j363622d3u6d5e4f1ae442d1e@mail.gmail.com>	<004101c849c1$16ca1f80$445e5e80$@com.au>	<5aca9be50712281923r334cce9s83a17bbf8f6e3fa7@mail.gmail.com>	<004b01c849d0$d9393790$8baba6b0$@com.au>	<20071229051747.GH7554@soprano.little-possums.net>	<000301c849df$65802250$308066f0$@com.au>	<5aca9be50712282327n4a99d43fo2579112b858f160@mail.gmail.com>	<000b01c849f0$da0ad1e0$8e2075a0$@com.au>	<5aca9be50712290044k6bd519f4k78eab64d849a510b@mail.gmail.com>
	<3cf5ea650801012219m746d6c7au25275363b4bb01eb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003301c84eb2$54888f00$fd99ad00$@com.au>

:)

Thanks for the kind words, Steve.

-Joel


-----Original Message-----
From: tml-bounces at travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-bounces at travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Steve Burchett
Sent: Wednesday, 2 January 2008 5:19 PM
To: The Traveller Mailing List
Subject: Re: [TML] Corp World - adventure seed by Joel Callahan

I also saved it for play in the near future. Thanks for the seed!

Steve :D
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML at travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tim at little-possums.net  Fri Jan  4 02:16:46 2008
From: tim at little-possums.net (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 20:16:46 +1100
Subject: [TML] Noncanonical TU 3D.
In-Reply-To: <5f542a9e0801032321v11fd7552x1435e8c799fb3eb4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <410F0EB8-D372-4788-B74C-6556F5E06449@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
	<C3A33757.11872%jursamaj@yahoo.com>
	<5f542a9e0801032321v11fd7552x1435e8c799fb3eb4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20080104091646.GQ7554@soprano.little-possums.net>

On Fri, Jan 04, 2008 at 02:21:24AM -0500, Thad Coons wrote:
> OK, for those interested, I now have a few pages of  Terran
> Space<http://www.sapiencekb.com/traveller/trav3d.htm> attached to my
> web site.
> I'd be interested in hearing commentary and feedback: offlist will do.

Yow, that's a nasty death rate for the first few interstellar trips :-(

1) All crew killed (ship couldn't return)
2) All crew presumed killed (ship never arrived)
3) Some crew killed
4) All crew killed
5) First base, many killed

It might be useful to mention how the people died in 3, 4, and 5.  I
know I'm wondering!  (The first explanations that came to mind seem
very unlikely on further consideration)


- Tim

From jursamaj at yahoo.com  Fri Jan  4 02:28:49 2008
From: jursamaj at yahoo.com (Jerry W Barrington)
Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 04:28:49 -0500
Subject: [TML] And you thought it was hot
In-Reply-To: <1832b5750801040034o16a695dne57d704e443fabf6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C3A36681.11883%jursamaj@yahoo.com>

On 1/4/08 3:34 AM, "Michael Jenkins" <darvedd at gmail.com> wrote:

> I like Akubra's:
> http://www.akubra.com.au/

Heh.  On their front page, the 3 guys sitting on a fence rail could easily
be taken for American cowboys.  Especially the one in black hat on the left,
looks about like a Stetson hat.


From tim at little-possums.net  Fri Jan  4 02:33:58 2008
From: tim at little-possums.net (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 20:33:58 +1100
Subject: [TML] Noncanonical TU 3D.
In-Reply-To: <C3A357C6.1187B%jursamaj@yahoo.com>
References: <5f542a9e0801032321v11fd7552x1435e8c799fb3eb4@mail.gmail.com>
	<C3A357C6.1187B%jursamaj@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20080104093358.GR7554@soprano.little-possums.net>

On Fri, Jan 04, 2008 at 03:25:58AM -0500, Jerry W Barrington wrote:
> One question: why can't a ship carry enough fuel to make it to
> Wolf 359 in 2 jumps?  That would get around that limit.

It might take more than 50% of the volume of the ship to make a jump
with the early drives.  There are ways around that problem with a
multi-stage ship, but I could see that getting extraordinarily
expensive.

Though it should be possible to find a large cometary body in deep
space from which to refuel.  There should be billions out there, and
by then sensors should be good enough to find one.  Even if you have
to detonate a huge nuclear flashbulb in the middle of deep space and
keep your sensors peeled for echoes, you only need to succeed once.


- Tim

From jursamaj at yahoo.com  Fri Jan  4 02:48:12 2008
From: jursamaj at yahoo.com (Jerry W Barrington)
Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 04:48:12 -0500
Subject: [TML] Noncanonical TU 3D.
In-Reply-To: <20080104093358.GR7554@soprano.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <C3A36B0C.1188A%jursamaj@yahoo.com>

On 1/4/08 4:33 AM, "Timothy Little" <tim at little-possums.net> wrote:

> On Fri, Jan 04, 2008 at 03:25:58AM -0500, Jerry W Barrington wrote:
>> One question: why can't a ship carry enough fuel to make it to
>> Wolf 359 in 2 jumps?  That would get around that limit.
> 
> It might take more than 50% of the volume of the ship to make a jump
> with the early drives.  There are ways around that problem with a
> multi-stage ship, but I could see that getting extraordinarily
> expensive.

Drop tanks can add a jump to anything though.  :)

> Though it should be possible to find a large cometary body in deep
> space from which to refuel.  There should be billions out there, and
> by then sensors should be good enough to find one.  Even if you have
> to detonate a huge nuclear flashbulb in the middle of deep space and
> keep your sensors peeled for echoes, you only need to succeed once.

Yup.  I can see a major project to do this while work proceeds on better
jump drives.  It only takes 1 exploration ship, so it should be pretty cheap
compared to drive research.  (This is one of my pet peeves with the OTU.)


From tim at little-possums.net  Fri Jan  4 03:38:26 2008
From: tim at little-possums.net (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 21:38:26 +1100
Subject: [TML] Noncanonical TU 3D.
In-Reply-To: <C3A36B0C.1188A%jursamaj@yahoo.com>
References: <20080104093358.GR7554@soprano.little-possums.net>
	<C3A36B0C.1188A%jursamaj@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20080104103826.GS7554@soprano.little-possums.net>

On Fri, Jan 04, 2008 at 04:48:12AM -0500, Jerry W Barrington wrote:
> Drop tanks

<makes a hasty sign to ward off evil>


- Tim

From magick.crow at gmail.com  Fri Jan  4 03:37:08 2008
From: magick.crow at gmail.com (Knapp)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 11:37:08 +0100
Subject: [TML] The Making of SolarCreations
In-Reply-To: <C3A33886.11874%jursamaj@yahoo.com>
References: <20080104010838.GC28226@soprano.little-possums.net>
	<C3A33886.11874%jursamaj@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <f495db580801040237y991fc2fke0f2b05f02a9719b@mail.gmail.com>

Yes, you and Tim both are saying the same thing. That there is reality
(at your place in space) and then there is good gaming. I have been
bouncing back and forth between make every system have a planet with
life to have to 100% hard SF and have mining bases and such all over
the place.

The more I read about stars the more I think we are stuck with a
system that is based or at least started with old ideas and is being
stretched to fit new ideas instead of just being redesigned and
simplified.
It looks to me like all stars can be described with just mass, age and
metallicity and not much else. Every thing else can be calculated
given this data. Is this totally off the mark?
Douglas

On Jan 4, 2008 7:12 AM, Jerry W Barrington <jursamaj at yahoo.com> wrote:
> On 1/3/08 8:08 PM, "Timothy Little" <tim at little-possums.net> wrote:
>
> > On Thu, Jan 03, 2008 at 07:15:09PM +0100, Knapp wrote:
> >> ['A',1],['F',3],['G',8],['K',14],['White Dwarf',10],['M',49],['Brown
> >> Dwarf',13],['Giant',1],['Special',1]
>
> Of course, a category like A spans a pretty large range in size and
> brightness.  Even a specific class like G2V spans more than a factor of 2 in
> brightness, depending on age.  That's why I'd rather generate a mass and an
> age.
>
> > [...]
> >> What would you experts out there choose for the right settings and
> >> numbers?
> >
> > Those look not unreasonable for our stellar neighbourhood.  The
> > numbers would vary in other settings, e.g. the galactic halo, globular
> > clusters, stellar "nursery" clusters and such.
> >
> > It also depends what you mean by the 'right' settings.  Most
> > realistic, or likely to give the most fun for a game?
>
> As that table shows, realistic means lots of M dwarfs.  Whether that is fun
> for a game depends on what you do with them.  :)
>

Yes, you and Tim both are saying the same thing. That there is reality
(at your place in space) and then there is good gaming. I have been
bouncing back and forth between, make every system have a planet with
life to have to 100% hard SF and have mining bases and such all over
the place.

The more I read about stars the more I think we are stuck with a
system that is based or at least started with old ideas and is being
stretched to fit new ideas instead of just being redesigned and
simplified.
It looks to me like all stars can be described with just mass, age and
metallicity and not much else. Every thing else can be calculated
given this data. Is this totally off the mark?

Given this is right, how would you make your random tables to create
this info for the Sol area of space and how would you calculate all
the other bits? Would this be to hard to do? I wish I knew more in
this area but I don't. I will keep reading and would love and links to
good info. Star counts (stats) that are easy to understand would also
be good.

Thanks

Douglas

From magick.crow at gmail.com  Fri Jan  4 03:44:22 2008
From: magick.crow at gmail.com (Knapp)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 11:44:22 +0100
Subject: [TML] Joel brings the New Year in with a bang!
In-Reply-To: <002c01c84eb1$af55e8c0$0e01ba40$@com.au>
References: <5f542a9e0801032321v11fd7552x1435e8c799fb3eb4@mail.gmail.com>
	<C3A357C6.1187B%jursamaj@yahoo.com>
	<002c01c84eb1$af55e8c0$0e01ba40$@com.au>
Message-ID: <f495db580801040244j16bae08aqe9e3b71f1ae94cc3@mail.gmail.com>

On Jan 4, 2008 10:10 AM,  <traveller at dhimaging.com.au> wrote:
> Well, where to begin.
>
> I left the house 30-Dec to get some groceries stocked up for New Years Eve
> and New Years Day.
>
> On the way back with a car full of groceries and some pizza for tea, the sun
> was very low and brightly glaring in my windscreen.  I came up on a sharp
> curve and standing in the middle of the road (but slightly in my lane of
> traffic) was a giant 'roo.
>
> I swerved to my left to avoid hitting it, but my left tyres went off the
> bitumen (pavement) and I started losing control.   I then started steering
> to the right to compensate and I tried to apply the clutch to let the car
> slow down (rather than slamming the brakes on).
>
> Good plan, but the car only sped up!  Little did I know that in my excited
> state, I was actually applying full throttle to the accelerator rather than
> applying the clutch.
>
> Sigh.
>
> At one point, I was sliding backwards down my lane of traffic, slowly
> spinning.  When I saw the edge of the road and the trees growing up from it,
> I knew it was bad.  Then the Jeep hit (something), the view out the
> windscreen tilted (hard), and I remember being ejected through either the
> passenger side window or the removable hard top.  I'm still not sure which
> one, but the amount of glass they plucked out of my head makes me think it
> was the window.
>
> I lost consciousness and when I woke up, I was lying on the hardtop, the
> Jeep was on its side with the motor still running, and someone was telling
> me "it's going to be okay, but for GOD'S sake - DON'T MOVE!".
>
> A few days in Hospital (they were worried about the loss of consciousness,
> the cuts on my head, and the massively large bruises all over my abdomen and
> thighs), and they finally let me out.
>
> The Jeep is a write-off (the frame is wrecked.  The wrecker operator says
> the frame on a Jeep Wrangler is a very heavy duty type and for it to be
> twisted and warped as bad as it was, it must have been a pretty bad
> accident) - I have some car yards preparing quotes to buy what's left off of
> me (for parts).  I had recently fallen on hard times and the car did not
> have insurance.
>
> I've secured financing for another vehicle (2nd hand, but in great shape and
> with a 3-year bumper-to-bumper warranty) and I just drove it to the house
> about an hour ago.  I went VERY slowly and when I went past the place I
> wrecked the Jeep, I was amazed.  If I had gone off the other side of the
> road, there was a 20-meter fall-off and it was wall-to-wall pine trees.  No
> way would I have survived.  And to be honest, everyone keeps telling me that
> normally if a person is ejected from a vehicle when it's involved in a very
> bad accident, they don't survive to talk about it.
>
> =sigh=
>
> So, what did I miss?
>
> -Joel
Sounds like you missed finding out the answer to the resent list
discussions about God. Not so sure about the roo.
Douglas

From magick.crow at gmail.com  Fri Jan  4 03:46:54 2008
From: magick.crow at gmail.com (Knapp)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 11:46:54 +0100
Subject: [TML] Joel brings the New Year in with a bang!
In-Reply-To: <f495db580801040244j16bae08aqe9e3b71f1ae94cc3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5f542a9e0801032321v11fd7552x1435e8c799fb3eb4@mail.gmail.com>
	<C3A357C6.1187B%jursamaj@yahoo.com>
	<002c01c84eb1$af55e8c0$0e01ba40$@com.au>
	<f495db580801040244j16bae08aqe9e3b71f1ae94cc3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f495db580801040246w16e79f0y269975d82d01e2ae@mail.gmail.com>

> > So, what did I miss?
> >
> > -Joel
> Sounds like you missed finding out the answer to the resent list
> discussions about God. Not so sure about the roo.
> Douglas

Sounds like you also missed the clutch. Hope you are feeling better.
If you have pains let me know off list. I might be able to help
Douglas E Knapp

From tim at little-possums.net  Fri Jan  4 04:44:55 2008
From: tim at little-possums.net (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 22:44:55 +1100
Subject: [TML] The Making of SolarCreations
In-Reply-To: <f495db580801040237y991fc2fke0f2b05f02a9719b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20080104010838.GC28226@soprano.little-possums.net>
	<C3A33886.11874%jursamaj@yahoo.com>
	<f495db580801040237y991fc2fke0f2b05f02a9719b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20080104114455.GT7554@soprano.little-possums.net>

On Fri, Jan 04, 2008 at 11:37:08AM +0100, Knapp wrote:
> It looks to me like all stars can be described with just mass, age
> and metallicity and not much else. Every thing else can be
> calculated given this data. Is this totally off the mark?

It's pretty close.  There are some complexities, but they're
comparatively subtle and/or rare.

The most common complication would be systems with multiple stars.


- Tim

From sablemage at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Jan  4 06:18:55 2008
From: sablemage at yahoo.co.uk (Andy Slack)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 13:18:55 -0000
Subject: [TML] Joel brings the New Year in with a bang!
In-Reply-To: <002c01c84eb1$af55e8c0$0e01ba40$@com.au>
References: <5f542a9e0801032321v11fd7552x1435e8c799fb3eb4@mail.gmail.com>	<C3A357C6.1187B%jursamaj@yahoo.com>
	<002c01c84eb1$af55e8c0$0e01ba40$@com.au>
Message-ID: <000901c84ed4$5bfd7670$13f86350$@co.uk>

> From: tml-bounces at travellercentral.com [mailto:tml-
> bounces at travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of traveller at dhimaging.com.au
> And to be honest, everyone keeps telling me that
> normally if a person is ejected from a vehicle when it's involved in a
> very bad accident, they don't survive to talk about it.

That's how I hear it. Hope you're recovering quickly.

Andy



From darvedd at gmail.com  Fri Jan  4 06:26:35 2008
From: darvedd at gmail.com (Michael Jenkins)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 22:26:35 +0900
Subject: [TML] And you thought it was hot
In-Reply-To: <C3A36681.11883%jursamaj@yahoo.com>
References: <1832b5750801040034o16a695dne57d704e443fabf6@mail.gmail.com>
	<C3A36681.11883%jursamaj@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1832b5750801040526o3c477782sa78c7762e9d19aed@mail.gmail.com>

On 04/01/2008, Jerry W Barrington <jursamaj at yahoo.com> wrote:
> On 1/4/08 3:34 AM, "Michael Jenkins" <darvedd at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I like Akubra's:
> > http://www.akubra.com.au/
>
> Heh.  On their front page, the 3 guys sitting on a fence rail could easily
> be taken for American cowboys.  Especially the one in black hat on the left,
> looks about like a Stetson hat.

Think of it as convergent evolution, driven by the particulars of the
environment.

Did we see cowboy hats in Firefly? I don't recall off-hand.

Ob Trav: Any similar planetary environment could well have similar
local versions of this item. Or some weird variation.

Betcha weren't expecting an ObTrav!    :)

-- 
Regards,
Michael Jenkins
--
You cannot deny the humanity of another human being
Without also denying humanity in yourself
--

From aurictech at cox.net  Fri Jan  4 06:29:30 2008
From: aurictech at cox.net (John Groth)
Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 06:29:30 -0700
Subject: [TML] PMFG-15? (was: Re: Corp World - adventure seed by Joel
	Callahan)
In-Reply-To: <000b01c849f0$da0ad1e0$8e2075a0$@com.au>
References: <1832b5750712271735x53345bf5y4b70b6a7deae4900@mail.gmail.com>	<C399FA64.116D7%jursamaj@yahoo.com>	<4774f161.0b86460a.61b3.738c@mx.google.com>	<5aca9be50712281741j363622d3u6d5e4f1ae442d1e@mail.gmail.com>	<004101c849c1$16ca1f80$445e5e80$@com.au>	<5aca9be50712281923r334cce9s83a17bbf8f6e3fa7@mail.gmail.com>	<004b01c849d0$d9393790$8baba6b0$@com.au>	<20071229051747.GH7554@soprano.little-possums.net>	<000301c849df$65802250$308066f0$@com.au>	<5aca9be50712282327n4a99d43fo2579112b858f160@mail.gmail.com>
	<000b01c849f0$da0ad1e0$8e2075a0$@com.au>
Message-ID: <477E34BA.8050206@cox.net>

traveller at dhimaging.com.au wrote:

 >"Lockpicks?  I got your lockpick riiiiight here."
 >Ret. Gunny Sgt Rock Miller, patting his turret-mounted PMFG-15

~imagines a turret for a Pelvis-Mounted Fusion Gun-15~

~imagines a retired gunnery sergeant _patting_ his turreted 
Pelvis-Mounted Fusion Gun-15~

Is Kenji aware of this upgrade to the PGPM?

From darvedd at gmail.com  Fri Jan  4 06:41:04 2008
From: darvedd at gmail.com (Michael Jenkins)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 22:41:04 +0900
Subject: [TML] Joel brings the New Year in with a bang!
In-Reply-To: <002c01c84eb1$af55e8c0$0e01ba40$@com.au>
References: <5f542a9e0801032321v11fd7552x1435e8c799fb3eb4@mail.gmail.com>
	<C3A357C6.1187B%jursamaj@yahoo.com>
	<002c01c84eb1$af55e8c0$0e01ba40$@com.au>
Message-ID: <1832b5750801040541m54ae4ccem6958d10cf3034670@mail.gmail.com>

On 04/01/2008, traveller at dhimaging.com.au <traveller at dhimaging.com.au> wrote:
>
> I've secured financing for another vehicle (2nd hand, but in great shape and
> with a 3-year bumper-to-bumper warranty) and I just drove it to the house
> about an hour ago.  I went VERY slowly and when I went past the place I
> wrecked the Jeep, I was amazed.  If I had gone off the other side of the
> road, there was a 20-meter fall-off and it was wall-to-wall pine trees.  No
> way would I have survived.  And to be honest, everyone keeps telling me that
> normally if a person is ejected from a vehicle when it's involved in a very
> bad accident, they d