From magick.crow at gmail.com  Sat Mar  1 00:06:22 2008
From: magick.crow at gmail.com (Knapp)
Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2008 08:06:22 +0100
Subject: [TML] NEW SFRPG - Thousand Suns
In-Reply-To: <5aca9be50802291934x367ed88er170cc50706851d3e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <428620.93841.qm@web55601.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
	<5b0a00340802282149l75b2ff72k59ea96d81ae98a21@mail.gmail.com>
	<a1c92a9d0802282243n10e26126qac7a0185b9536bcb@mail.gmail.com>
	<47C82326.4060202@gmail.com>
	<5aca9be50802291934x367ed88er170cc50706851d3e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f495db580802292306tc7a01f7k4fca5c207c352fd@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Mar 1, 2008 at 4:34 AM, Richard Aiken <raikenclw at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 29, 2008 at 10:22 AM, Ross Winn <ross.winn at gmail.com> wrote:
>  > Stuart Frew wrote:
>  > > I must admit I do like being able to buy and download PDF rules/supplements,
>  > > specially being in NZ which means paper versions are rare and fecken
>  > > expensive
>  > Plus the company usually makes more profit from your purchase, it's a
>  > win-win.
>
>  I just wish I could figure out a way to conveniently read two-column
>  text on my lap-top.  If I make the page small enough to see all of
>  both columns at once, the text gets too small for my aging eyes to
>  read.  But if I leave it a decent size, then I'm constantly having to
>  scroll down, scroll back up, scroll over a tad and the scroll back
>  down again - on all pages.
>
>  It would seem to me that if a company is ONLY going to publish the
>  Whatever as a PDF, then could format the work as full-page text.
>  GURPS does this anyway (except for their use of sidebars, which you
>  can ignore unless they interest you particularly . . . which is why
>  they're sidebars).  I haven't actually downloaded that many PDFs yet,
>  but each one I have bought uses the same two-column format.
>
>  So - to read things easily - I end up having to print them out.  Even
>  setting the printer to black-and-white draft and using relatively
>  cheap "refill it yourself" ink systems, that usually costs me another
>  $5 or $10 per PDF.  So I don't saving anything or even end up spending
>  even more.
>
>  For instance, I've recently been considering purchase of the WoD
>  supplement "Midnight Roads."  Not that I run WoD, but glancing through
>  it in the store makes me think it could be easily adapted to create a
>  "Dark Serenity" game - just replace the hot cars with hot PC-scale
>  ships and the seedy highway towns with seedy frontier
>  starports/startowns.
>
>  It's available on DriveThruRPG at $17.95, whereas buying it through my
>  local BAM would cost about $23 (after adjusting for my discount and
>  local sales tax).  But if I have to print it out to read it easily,
>  that bumps the effective price of the PDF back up to about $22.95.  If
>  I bind it in any way - even just put it into a cheap Walmart 3-ring
>  binder - that adds at least another $2 to the price of the "bargain"
>  PDF.  So I might as well just buy the hardback from BAM and get a much
>  nicer product.
>
>  But I'd buy the PDF in an instant . . . IF I could read it as full-page text.
>  --
>  Richard Aiken
I don't know if you can do this windows but in linux you can just cut
and paste PDFs into a txt format.


-- 
Douglas E Knapp
http://sf-journey-creations.wikispot.org/Front_Page

From magick.crow at gmail.com  Sat Mar  1 00:08:50 2008
From: magick.crow at gmail.com (Knapp)
Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2008 08:08:50 +0100
Subject: [TML] NY Reload
In-Reply-To: <264586.80550.qm@web31902.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <5aca9be50802272150j7f4e98f7m3d426a6124915f83@mail.gmail.com>
	<264586.80550.qm@web31902.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <f495db580802292308h482cf57dubd424aab71162b0b@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Mar 1, 2008 at 6:11 AM, Rycharde, Rex Lancaster
<rik_packham at yahoo.com> wrote:
> action 1: pull empty magazine,
>  action 2: get new mag
>  action 3: insert mag
>
>  action 1: draw new weapon
>
>  think i'll go for the new weapon
>
>  --- Richard Aiken <raikenclw at gmail.com> wrote:

Don't know about your guns but mine has a button that shoots the old
clip out, so step one is not much of a step. And draw new weapon? What
about the old one? Just dropping it? That could get expensive. Re
holster it, more time or shoot left handed??

-- 
Douglas E Knapp
http://sf-journey-creations.wikispot.org/Front_Page

From shadow at shadowgard.com  Sat Mar  1 01:01:58 2008
From: shadow at shadowgard.com (shadow at shadowgard.com)
Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2008 00:01:58 -0800
Subject: [TML] Martial Arts
In-Reply-To: <1832b5750802280039m6cf9e10fl71cd5b3472748122@mail.gmail.com>
References: <C3EACE12.12B08%jerry.barrington@gmail.com>,
	<5aca9be50802272221x2b5300bfw4ba5f2932fd1b84e@mail.gmail.com>,
	<1832b5750802280039m6cf9e10fl71cd5b3472748122@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47C89CF6.27984.1F00D42F@shadow.shadowgard.com>

On 28 Feb 2008 at 17:39, Michael Jenkins wrote:

> On 28/02/2008, Richard Aiken <raikenclw at gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Wed, Feb 27, 2008 at 8:48 AM, Mark Urbin <eclipse at urbin.net> wrote:
> >
> > > Very much a style thing.  The big magnum autoloader are loud and make
> >  > big holes in things.  Good to start off with.  A bit of shock and awe
> >  > and all that jazz.
> >
> > There's a couple of novels by Barney Cohen starring a noir-ish
> >  detective named Bockhorn.  There's a line in one of them ("Blood On
> >  The Moon" IIRC) that goes something like: "I pointed the magnum
> >  between his eyes and held it steady.  The needler actually does more
> >  damage, but the sheer size of the magnum has a delightful effect on
> >  the attitude of most people."
> 
> Reminds me of Douglas Adams' Kill-O-Zap gun, a gun which clearly has a
> right end and a wrong end to be on, with the person on the wrong end
> being made to feel particularly unhappy at that fact ...

Sargeant Schlock's favorite hand weapons. The ones with the "ominous 
hum" sound effect.

Anybody who *isn't* worried by a weapon with a muzzle you could stick 
your *fist* in and that can blow holes thru powered armor isn't 
really paying attention.

--
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow)
shadow at shadowgard dot com



From shadow at shadowgard.com  Sat Mar  1 01:01:57 2008
From: shadow at shadowgard.com (shadow at shadowgard.com)
Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2008 00:01:57 -0800
Subject: [TML] Smart Vilani dogs?
In-Reply-To: <5aca9be50802272211w2255431s77eb7dd48076651a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8dee73060802261719t2593ffdehc8a86f74fbf34f08@mail.gmail.com>,
	<C3EA3A32.12AE7%jerry.barrington@gmail.com>,
	<5aca9be50802272211w2255431s77eb7dd48076651a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47C89CF5.18740.1F00D1ED@shadow.shadowgard.com>

On 28 Feb 2008 at 1:11, Richard Aiken wrote:

> I was rather disappointed with the players in my last campaign.  None
> of them ever made the connection between a small, insular asteroid
> colony named "Farnham's Freehold" and the fact that all of the "men"
> there were rather obese with falsetto voices . . . (Needless to say,
> they never met the real leader).

You only get falsetto if they were "tempered" early. 
 
> Although the cover of the book IS misleading.  It reflects the spirit
> of the action up to about halfway in, then the plot takes an EXTREME
> twist.

*Which* cover. Most Heinlein works have had several.

--
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow)
shadow at shadowgard dot com



From shadow at shadowgard.com  Sat Mar  1 01:01:59 2008
From: shadow at shadowgard.com (shadow at shadowgard.com)
Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2008 00:01:59 -0800
Subject: [TML] Smart Vilani dogs?
In-Reply-To: <000d01c879ff$2afc0540$e3354b0c@YOURFEDDA97C02>
References: <47C58450.20891.12DC89C6@shadow.shadowgard.com>,
	<000d01c879ff$2afc0540$e3354b0c@YOURFEDDA97C02>
Message-ID: <47C89CF7.27384.1F00D95F@shadow.shadowgard.com>

On 28 Feb 2008 at 6:43, Garry Ward wrote:

> >>  An author writes what makes an interesting book, or what he wants to 
> >> provoke
> >>  thought about, etc.  Doesn't have to *hold* those views.
> >
> > I am not a pro author but I have written a few short stories. You
> > would not believe how many times people have said to me, "WOW, I did
> > not know you thought that!" In reference to something some character
> > did or said. Of course I didn't think that way at all, often it was
> > the opposite of what I thought. It seems though that most people
> > believe that authors write characters that are nothing but shadows of
> > themselves.
> 
> Yeah; you should see the looks I got when, for the last NANOWRIMO, I said 
> that I planned to get in touch with my inner serial killer....

Yeah, and then there were the folks who wanted to lynch me as some 
sort of pedophile because I wrote some sttories with teens having 
sex. Never mind that they were having it with each other or that I'm 
far from the only person how had fantasies of having sex when I was 
that age. I *had* to be "projecting" and wanting to have sex with 
kids.

I wonder what the folks giving you the looks and the ones giving me 
grief think about Steven King? Or the guy who wrote Silence of the 
Lambs?

--
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow)
shadow at shadowgard dot com



From jerry.barrington at gmail.com  Sat Mar  1 01:09:39 2008
From: jerry.barrington at gmail.com (Jerry W Barrington)
Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2008 03:09:39 -0500
Subject: [TML] NY Reload
In-Reply-To: <f495db580802292308h482cf57dubd424aab71162b0b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C3EE7973.12BCB%jerry.barrington@gmail.com>

On 3/1/08 2:08 AM, "Knapp" <magick.crow at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sat, Mar 1, 2008 at 6:11 AM, Rycharde, Rex Lancaster
> <rik_packham at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> action 1: pull empty magazine,
>>  action 2: get new mag
>>  action 3: insert mag
>> 
>>  action 1: draw new weapon
>> 
>>  think i'll go for the new weapon
>> 
>>  --- Richard Aiken <raikenclw at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Don't know about your guns but mine has a button that shoots the old
> clip out, so step one is not much of a step. And draw new weapon? What
> about the old one? Just dropping it? That could get expensive. Re
> holster it, more time or shoot left handed??

Actually, thinking ergonomically, it's more like:

Action 1 right: push button to drop mag
Action 1 left: reach to where new magazine is
Action 2: bring new mag up and insert

Vs.

Action 1: reach for new gun while dropping old
Action 2: bring new gun up

Seems the time would be about the same.

One loses a magazine, the other loses a gun.  Assuming you walk/run away
from the scene without being able to retrieve.  Of course, if the gun is on
a lanyard, no problem.

But honestly, if you use something like that one in Lethal Weapon, with 15
rounds, and you run out, I doubt quibbling over this issue is going to help
anyway!


From jerry.barrington at gmail.com  Sat Mar  1 01:16:04 2008
From: jerry.barrington at gmail.com (Jerry W Barrington)
Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2008 03:16:04 -0500
Subject: [TML] Smart Vilani dogs?
In-Reply-To: <47C89CF7.27384.1F00D95F@shadow.shadowgard.com>
Message-ID: <C3EE7AF4.12BD0%jerry.barrington@gmail.com>

On 3/1/08 3:01 AM, "shadow at shadowgard.com" <shadow at shadowgard.com> wrote:

> I wonder what the folks giving you the looks and the ones giving me
> grief think about Steven King? Or the guy who wrote Silence of the
> Lambs?

I like what Steven said once in an interview.  The interviewer asked
something along these lines, and Steven said:

    I have the heart of a child...

    and I like to keep it in a little jar on my desk.


From raikenclw at gmail.com  Sat Mar  1 01:49:06 2008
From: raikenclw at gmail.com (Richard Aiken)
Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2008 03:49:06 -0500
Subject: [TML] NY Reload
In-Reply-To: <f495db580802292308h482cf57dubd424aab71162b0b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5aca9be50802272150j7f4e98f7m3d426a6124915f83@mail.gmail.com>
	<264586.80550.qm@web31902.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<f495db580802292308h482cf57dubd424aab71162b0b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5aca9be50803010049n2469e883xf685c6efe9c4514e@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Mar 1, 2008 at 2:08 AM, Knapp <magick.crow at gmail.com> wrote:
> Don't know about your guns but mine has a button that shoots the old
> clip out, so step one is not much of a step. And draw new weapon? What
> about the old one? Just dropping it? That could get expensive. Re
> holster it, more time or shoot left handed??

I think the idea is that the second you waste re-holstering the gun
(or drawing out a new magazine) might just be the second that makes
the difference between living and dying.

Of course, this assumes dramatic action in the grand tradition of
RPGs.  In the real world, I seem to recall reading about a gunfight
that took place inside a CAR without either combatant hitting the
other . . .

-- 
Richard Aiken

"Never insult anyone by accident."  Robert A. Heinlein

From raikenclw at gmail.com  Sat Mar  1 01:56:23 2008
From: raikenclw at gmail.com (Richard Aiken)
Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2008 03:56:23 -0500
Subject: [TML] Smart Vilani dogs?
In-Reply-To: <47C89CF5.18740.1F00D1ED@shadow.shadowgard.com>
References: <8dee73060802261719t2593ffdehc8a86f74fbf34f08@mail.gmail.com>
	<C3EA3A32.12AE7%jerry.barrington@gmail.com>
	<5aca9be50802272211w2255431s77eb7dd48076651a@mail.gmail.com>
	<47C89CF5.18740.1F00D1ED@shadow.shadowgard.com>
Message-ID: <5aca9be50803010056l1efd6011x5e7f84b4581c4f1b@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Mar 1, 2008 at 3:01 AM,  <shadow at shadowgard.com> wrote:
> You only get falsetto if they were "tempered" early.

Details . . . :-)

> > Although the cover of the book IS misleading.  It reflects the spirit
> > of the action up to about halfway in, then the plot takes an EXTREME
> > twist.
>
> *Which* cover. Most Heinlein works have had several.

The only one I can recall seeing is the one with the wooden sign that
is (apparently) to be seen as you near the Freehold on a footpath,
with stuff about having various food and drink for sale, payments
taken in kind and having "Free Kittens" to give away . . . then the
little "skull-and-crossed-bones" warning at the bottom against leaving
the path, because the fields are mined.

That is, the sign implies a stereotypical post-apocalyptic plot . . .
which is more or less the truth, until about halfway in.

-- 
Richard Aiken

"Never insult anyone by accident."  Robert A. Heinlein

From darvedd at gmail.com  Sat Mar  1 02:25:13 2008
From: darvedd at gmail.com (Michael Jenkins)
Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2008 18:25:13 +0900
Subject: [TML] Martial Arts
In-Reply-To: <47C89CF6.27984.1F00D42F@shadow.shadowgard.com>
References: <C3EACE12.12B08%jerry.barrington@gmail.com>
	<5aca9be50802272221x2b5300bfw4ba5f2932fd1b84e@mail.gmail.com>
	<1832b5750802280039m6cf9e10fl71cd5b3472748122@mail.gmail.com>
	<47C89CF6.27984.1F00D42F@shadow.shadowgard.com>
Message-ID: <1832b5750803010125g10313ceqc05244558d8863d1@mail.gmail.com>

On 01/03/2008, shadow at shadowgard.com <shadow at shadowgard.com> wrote:
> On 28 Feb 2008 at 17:39, Michael Jenkins wrote:
>
>  > On 28/02/2008, Richard Aiken <raikenclw at gmail.com> wrote:
>  > > On Wed, Feb 27, 2008 at 8:48 AM, Mark Urbin <eclipse at urbin.net> wrote:
>  > >
>  > > > Very much a style thing.  The big magnum autoloader are loud and make
>  > >  > big holes in things.  Good to start off with.  A bit of shock and awe
>  > >  > and all that jazz.
>  > >
>  > > There's a couple of novels by Barney Cohen starring a noir-ish
>  > >  detective named Bockhorn.  There's a line in one of them ("Blood On
>  > >  The Moon" IIRC) that goes something like: "I pointed the magnum
>  > >  between his eyes and held it steady.  The needler actually does more
>  > >  damage, but the sheer size of the magnum has a delightful effect on
>  > >  the attitude of most people."
>  >
>  > Reminds me of Douglas Adams' Kill-O-Zap gun, a gun which clearly has a
>  > right end and a wrong end to be on, with the person on the wrong end
>  > being made to feel particularly unhappy at that fact ...
>
> Sargeant Schlock's favorite hand weapons. The ones with the "ominous
>  hum" sound effect.
>
>  Anybody who *isn't* worried by a weapon with a muzzle you could stick
>  your *fist* in and that can blow holes thru powered armor isn't
>  really paying attention.

Yes, always a good one. Schlock has a strong preference for a gun with
an ominous hum.

-- 
Regards,
Michael Jenkins
--
You cannot deny the humanity of another human being
Without also denying humanity in yourself
--

From tim at little-possums.net  Sat Mar  1 04:44:35 2008
From: tim at little-possums.net (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2008 22:44:35 +1100
Subject: [TML] Death
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0803010726040.11258@localhost>
References: <C3ECD254.12B78%jerry.barrington@gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.58.0803010726040.11258@localhost>
Message-ID: <20080301114435.GF3663@soprano.little-possums.net>

On Sat, Mar 01, 2008 at 07:35:03AM +1030, Lord Ronin from Q-Link wrote:
> On Thu, 28 Feb 2008, Jerry W Barrington wrote:
> > Things like World of Warcraft, Everquest, D&D Online, etc...
> 
> Wonder if they would work with this Linux system?

Yes, with varying degrees of difficulty - most are written only for
the Windows flavour of the day, but will run under Wine will more or
less configuration details.  Some MMOGs do have native Linux clients.


> Are they worth the time and Money?

Almost invariably not - especially the time.  Most of these games are
deliberately designed to eat thousands of hours just to begin with.
Given that, they are usually essentially free in terms of cost per
hour of "entertainment".

In most of them the quantity and quality of roleplaying is negligible.
In RPG terms they tend to be the equivalent of slogfest dungeon crawls
under particularly bizarre rules, run by a demented idiot rules-lawyer
GM.


>  3:30pm 11/Mar/78ce is the time and date I put on my first character.

Heh, that's many years before my first character :-)


- Tim

From webmaster at travellercentral.com  Sat Mar  1 06:47:56 2008
From: webmaster at travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2008 06:47:56 -0700
Subject: [TML] NY Reload
In-Reply-To: <264586.80550.qm@web31902.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <264586.80550.qm@web31902.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <DFC8B53B-21F5-4152-993E-BA46FA284357@travellercentral.com>


On Feb 29, 2008, at 10:11 PM, Rycharde, Rex Lancaster wrote:

> action 1: pull empty magazine,
> action 2: get new mag
> action 3: insert mag
>
> action 1: draw new weapon
>
> think i'll go for the new weapon
>

You just don;t know how to reload properly.  NY reload was great for  
revolvers.  Go to an IPSC pistol match some day and watch a speed  
reload.

For example:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJVoc5uJ2e4

From webmaster at travellercentral.com  Sat Mar  1 06:49:13 2008
From: webmaster at travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2008 06:49:13 -0700
Subject: [TML] NY Reload
In-Reply-To: <f495db580802292308h482cf57dubd424aab71162b0b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5aca9be50802272150j7f4e98f7m3d426a6124915f83@mail.gmail.com>
	<264586.80550.qm@web31902.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<f495db580802292308h482cf57dubd424aab71162b0b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <58E2B9FB-CFE6-4FF4-8F87-69EC56DF6E32@travellercentral.com>


>
>
> Don't know about your guns but mine has a button that shoots the old
> clip out, so step one is not much of a step. And draw new weapon? What

You means magazine, not clip.
>
> about the old one? Just dropping it? That could get expensive. Re
> holster it, more time or shoot left handed??

Death is cheap, that's true.

From webmaster at travellercentral.com  Sat Mar  1 06:51:30 2008
From: webmaster at travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2008 06:51:30 -0700
Subject: [TML] NY Reload
In-Reply-To: <C3EE7973.12BCB%jerry.barrington@gmail.com>
References: <C3EE7973.12BCB%jerry.barrington@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3DBC3B42-7CE6-4ECD-9C48-25C12658D0AB@travellercentral.com>

>> Don't know about your guns but mine has a button that shoots the old
>> clip out, so step one is not much of a step. And draw new weapon?  
>> What
>> about the old one? Just dropping it? That could get expensive. Re
>> holster it, more time or shoot left handed??
>
> Actually, thinking ergonomically, it's more like:
>
> Action 1 right: push button to drop mag
> Action 1 left: reach to where new magazine is
> Action 2: bring new mag up and insert
>
> Vs.
>
> Action 1: reach for new gun while dropping old
> Action 2: bring new gun up


Actually, with a modern auto and skill it's;

1.  Gun hand hits mag release while off hand draws spare mag
2.  Insert fresh mag

From webmaster at travellercentral.com  Sat Mar  1 06:56:42 2008
From: webmaster at travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2008 06:56:42 -0700
Subject: [TML] Handgun 6?
Message-ID: <E5922D7F-09F3-490E-B4D6-642C016C921B@travellercentral.com>

More on speed loading.

Here's Jerry Miculek Beating Ed McGivern's record (eight shots into a  
playing card in 1 second.  Notice the speed reload on the last  
string.  Think a NY reload is faster?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6X8SniBF-c&feature=related

From webmaster at travellercentral.com  Sat Mar  1 06:58:14 2008
From: webmaster at travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2008 06:58:14 -0700
Subject: [TML] Handgun 6?
In-Reply-To: <E5922D7F-09F3-490E-B4D6-642C016C921B@travellercentral.com>
References: <E5922D7F-09F3-490E-B4D6-642C016C921B@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <4F20F6EC-1F41-4AAA-A2AF-5DFAA3542507@travellercentral.com>


On Mar 1, 2008, at 6:56 AM, Tod Glenn wrote:

> More on speed loading.
>
> Here's Jerry Miculek Beating Ed McGivern's record (eight shots into a
> playing card in 1 second.  Notice the speed reload on the last
> string.  Think a NY reload is faster?
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6X8SniBF-c&feature=related
> _______________________________________________

More fast shooting and reloading:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrRczKLjGnM&feature=related

From darvedd at gmail.com  Sat Mar  1 07:29:39 2008
From: darvedd at gmail.com (Michael Jenkins)
Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2008 23:29:39 +0900
Subject: [TML] Handgun 6?
In-Reply-To: <E5922D7F-09F3-490E-B4D6-642C016C921B@travellercentral.com>
References: <E5922D7F-09F3-490E-B4D6-642C016C921B@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <1832b5750803010629i236a7b25gf436d31e7066e502@mail.gmail.com>

On 01/03/2008, Tod Glenn <webmaster at travellercentral.com> wrote:
> More on speed loading.
>
>  Here's Jerry Miculek Beating Ed McGivern's record (eight shots into a
>  playing card in 1 second.  Notice the speed reload on the last
>  string.  Think a NY reload is faster?
>
>  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6X8SniBF-c&feature=related

He seemed to barely wave his hand over the gun, and the reload was done!

Astonishingly fast.

-- 
Regards,
Michael Jenkins
--
You cannot deny the humanity of another human being
Without also denying humanity in yourself
--

From sburchett at gmail.com  Sat Mar  1 07:57:21 2008
From: sburchett at gmail.com (Steve Burchett)
Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2008 08:57:21 -0600
Subject: [TML] Smart Vilani dogs?
In-Reply-To: <5aca9be50803010056l1efd6011x5e7f84b4581c4f1b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8dee73060802261719t2593ffdehc8a86f74fbf34f08@mail.gmail.com>
	<C3EA3A32.12AE7%jerry.barrington@gmail.com>
	<5aca9be50802272211w2255431s77eb7dd48076651a@mail.gmail.com>
	<47C89CF5.18740.1F00D1ED@shadow.shadowgard.com>
	<5aca9be50803010056l1efd6011x5e7f84b4581c4f1b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3cf5ea650803010657n7c06f961nbcda7bb6ea6a7252@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Mar 1, 2008 at 2:56 AM, Richard Aiken <raikenclw at gmail.com> wrote:

> The only one I can recall seeing is the one with the wooden sign that
> is (apparently) to be seen as you near the Freehold on a footpath,
> with stuff about having various food and drink for sale, payments
> taken in kind and having "Free Kittens" to give away . . . then the
> little "skull-and-crossed-bones" warning at the bottom against leaving
> the path, because the fields are mined.
>
> That is, the sign implies a stereotypical post-apocalyptic plot . . .
> which is more or less the truth, until about halfway in.


Actually, the description of that sign is in the final pages of the book.

When I read Farnhams Freehold, I was about nine years old, and I took it
completely to heart. It was one of the formative events in my life. Of
course, so were most of Mr. Heinlein's works at the time I read them.

My parents both worked at the time (early '60s) and I was left pretty much
to my own devices and essentially raised myself-- well, I would say Mr.
Heinlein raised me, as I took most of my clues from him.

I am an odd bird, indeed.

Steve

From magick.crow at gmail.com  Sat Mar  1 10:29:54 2008
From: magick.crow at gmail.com (Knapp)
Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2008 18:29:54 +0100
Subject: [TML] Handgun 6?
In-Reply-To: <1832b5750803010629i236a7b25gf436d31e7066e502@mail.gmail.com>
References: <E5922D7F-09F3-490E-B4D6-642C016C921B@travellercentral.com>
	<1832b5750803010629i236a7b25gf436d31e7066e502@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f495db580803010929qe58e39et955cee29783dc0bb@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Mar 1, 2008 at 3:29 PM, Michael Jenkins <darvedd at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 01/03/2008, Tod Glenn <webmaster at travellercentral.com> wrote:
>  > More on speed loading.
>  >
>  >  Here's Jerry Miculek Beating Ed McGivern's record (eight shots into a
>  >  playing card in 1 second.  Notice the speed reload on the last
>  >  string.  Think a NY reload is faster?
>  >
>  >  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6X8SniBF-c&feature=related
>
>  He seemed to barely wave his hand over the gun, and the reload was done!
>
>  Astonishingly fast.
>
>  --
>  Regards,
>  Michael Jenkins
>  --
>  You cannot deny the humanity of another human being
>  Without also denying humanity in yourself
>  --
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>  TML mailing list
>  TML at travellercentral.com
>  http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>
And they guy with dex 3?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6lzCmxbDDk&NR=1


-- 
Douglas E Knapp
http://sf-journey-creations.wikispot.org/Front_Page

From shadow at shadowgard.com  Sat Mar  1 10:31:22 2008
From: shadow at shadowgard.com (shadow at shadowgard.com)
Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2008 09:31:22 -0800
Subject: [TML] Smart Vilani dogs?
In-Reply-To: <C3EE7AF4.12BD0%jerry.barrington@gmail.com>
References: <47C89CF7.27384.1F00D95F@shadow.shadowgard.com>,
	<C3EE7AF4.12BD0%jerry.barrington@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47C9226A.5571.210C257C@shadow.shadowgard.com>

On 1 Mar 2008 at 3:16, Jerry W Barrington wrote:

> On 3/1/08 3:01 AM, "shadow at shadowgard.com" <shadow at shadowgard.com> wrote:
> 
> > I wonder what the folks giving you the looks and the ones giving me
> > grief think about Steven King? Or the guy who wrote Silence of the
> > Lambs?
> 
> I like what Steven said once in an interview.  The interviewer asked
> something along these lines, and Steven said:
> 
>     I have the heart of a child...
> 
>     and I like to keep it in a little jar on my desk.

He swiped that from Robert Bloch.

--
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow)
shadow at shadowgard dot com



From shadow at shadowgard.com  Sat Mar  1 10:31:21 2008
From: shadow at shadowgard.com (shadow at shadowgard.com)
Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2008 09:31:21 -0800
Subject: [TML] Martial Arts
In-Reply-To: <1832b5750803010125g10313ceqc05244558d8863d1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <C3EACE12.12B08%jerry.barrington@gmail.com>,
	<47C89CF6.27984.1F00D42F@shadow.shadowgard.com>,
	<1832b5750803010125g10313ceqc05244558d8863d1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47C92269.19557.210C2240@shadow.shadowgard.com>

On 1 Mar 2008 at 18:25, Michael Jenkins wrote:

> On 01/03/2008, shadow at shadowgard.com <shadow at shadowgard.com> wrote:
> > On 28 Feb 2008 at 17:39, Michael Jenkins wrote:
> >
> >  > On 28/02/2008, Richard Aiken <raikenclw at gmail.com> wrote:
> >  > > On Wed, Feb 27, 2008 at 8:48 AM, Mark Urbin <eclipse at urbin.net> wrote:
> >  > >
> >  > > > Very much a style thing.  The big magnum autoloader are loud and make
> >  > >  > big holes in things.  Good to start off with.  A bit of shock and awe
> >  > >  > and all that jazz.
> >  > >
> >  > > There's a couple of novels by Barney Cohen starring a noir-ish
> >  > >  detective named Bockhorn.  There's a line in one of them ("Blood On
> >  > >  The Moon" IIRC) that goes something like: "I pointed the magnum
> >  > >  between his eyes and held it steady.  The needler actually does more
> >  > >  damage, but the sheer size of the magnum has a delightful effect on
> >  > >  the attitude of most people."
> >  >
> >  > Reminds me of Douglas Adams' Kill-O-Zap gun, a gun which clearly has a
> >  > right end and a wrong end to be on, with the person on the wrong end
> >  > being made to feel particularly unhappy at that fact ...
> >
> > Sargeant Schlock's favorite hand weapons. The ones with the "ominous
> >  hum" sound effect.
> >
> >  Anybody who *isn't* worried by a weapon with a muzzle you could stick
> >  your *fist* in and that can blow holes thru powered armor isn't
> >  really paying attention.
> 
> Yes, always a good one. Schlock has a strong preference for a gun with
> an ominous hum.

One of Christopher Anvil's short stories has some "Scout" type 
testing new equipment. And the great, wonderful weapon  darn near 
gets him killed by natives on a primitive planet.

Y'see, there's no muzzle flash, no visible beam and it's silent. So 
they don't connect the small thing in the Scout's hand with their 
friends dying...


--
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow)
shadow at shadowgard dot com



From magick.crow at gmail.com  Sat Mar  1 10:34:10 2008
From: magick.crow at gmail.com (Knapp)
Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2008 18:34:10 +0100
Subject: [TML] Smart Vilani dogs?
In-Reply-To: <47C89CF7.27384.1F00D95F@shadow.shadowgard.com>
References: <47C58450.20891.12DC89C6@shadow.shadowgard.com>
	<000d01c879ff$2afc0540$e3354b0c@YOURFEDDA97C02>
	<47C89CF7.27384.1F00D95F@shadow.shadowgard.com>
Message-ID: <f495db580803010934j3f738573i75179ad69c8d4849@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Mar 1, 2008 at 9:01 AM,  <shadow at shadowgard.com> wrote:
> On 28 Feb 2008 at 6:43, Garry Ward wrote:
>
>  > >>  An author writes what makes an interesting book, or what he wants to
>  > >> provoke
>  > >>  thought about, etc.  Doesn't have to *hold* those views.
>  > >
>  > > I am not a pro author but I have written a few short stories. You
>  > > would not believe how many times people have said to me, "WOW, I did
>  > > not know you thought that!" In reference to something some character
>  > > did or said. Of course I didn't think that way at all, often it was
>  > > the opposite of what I thought. It seems though that most people
>  > > believe that authors write characters that are nothing but shadows of
>  > > themselves.
>  >
>  > Yeah; you should see the looks I got when, for the last NANOWRIMO, I said
>  > that I planned to get in touch with my inner serial killer....
>
>  Yeah, and then there were the folks who wanted to lynch me as some
>  sort of pedophile because I wrote some sttories with teens having
>  sex. Never mind that they were having it with each other or that I'm
>  far from the only person how had fantasies of having sex when I was
>  that age. I *had* to be "projecting" and wanting to have sex with
>  kids.
>
>  I wonder what the folks giving you the looks and the ones giving me
>  grief think about Steven King? Or the guy who wrote Silence of the
>  Lambs?
>
>
>
>  --
>  Leonard Erickson (aka shadow)
>  shadow at shadowgard dot com

You need to learn to write anonymously{(SP?)!

-- 
Douglas E Knapp
http://sf-journey-creations.wikispot.org/Front_Page

From lordronin at vcsweb.com  Sat Mar  1 15:01:11 2008
From: lordronin at vcsweb.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2008 08:31:11 +1030 (CST)
Subject: [TML] Death
In-Reply-To: <20080301114435.GF3663@soprano.little-possums.net>
References: <C3ECD254.12B78%jerry.barrington@gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.58.0803010726040.11258@localhost>
	<20080301114435.GF3663@soprano.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0803020812460.19272@localhost>

Hoi Tim:

On Sat, 1 Mar 2008, Timothy Little wrote:

> Yes, with varying degrees of difficulty - most are written only for
> the Windows flavour of the day, but will run under Wine will more or
> less configuration details.  Some MMOGs do have native Linux clients.

 Ah, not something that I am ready for at this point. That "varying
degrees of difficulty" part.  Not really that good yet with this Linux
thing. Like I'll figure out how to mount that 3 1/2" drive thing and have
the Icon show up someday <current battle with the system>. Heard of Wine,
when I thought there was a simple hook up to run a DreamCast server. Hmm
not simple and the commands - language is past my old brain. Don't know
Linux yet and surely don't know windoze.

 I mean to say that the last article that I sent out for commodorefree
mag. Had to snail mail from west coast usa to the UK. Using a 5 1/4" disk.
MAkes me wonder about how I can write a Dungeon Adventure for our upcoming
C= con. Using GeoWrite & GeoPaint on a Commodore. Convert it to Post
Script on a Commodore. The Linux one is bout 1.2mb. But the windoze
version is almost 2mb. All I thought it did was do a LF for one and a CR
for another. My point is that I'll leave the windoze stuff alone for a
long time. By pass the emulation

> Almost invariably not - especially the time.  Most of these games are
> deliberately designed to eat thousands of hours just to begin with.
> Given that, they are usually essentially free in terms of cost per
> hour of "entertainment".

 Catch what you are saying. Only online games that I have sen are the
DreamCast and GameCube versions of Phantasy Star Online. Based on what I
have heard on and off the list. They are not in the least a thing to use
for a comparison. Now I may be disabled and pushing 60 from one side or
the other {G}. But I don't have a lot of time in the day to blow on that
sort of game. I mean I have 4-6 hours of F2F RPG each night to run.

> In most of them the quantity and quality of roleplaying is negligible.
> In RPG terms they tend to be the equivalent of slogfest dungeon crawls
> under particularly bizarre rules, run by a demented idiot rules-lawyer
> GM.

 /me shudders     Not into that sort of game style. Espcially a
rules-lawyer.

 Though members from this list, off list have been very kind in teaching
me some things on this topic and offereing help. Which I will be
accepting. Want to  learn more on just about everything, OK save fro D20
and windoze {biased that I am}

> Heh, that's many years before my first character :-)

 Got a long story that isn't really in the least twistable to be on
Traveller topic. Suffice to say it was a bad time in my life. Starting to
play the games, and then having to take over for the enjoyment of the
others. Cleaned up my life and head.

 As for on topic. I know of at least twice we have discussed computers in
the Imperium and the differences of the worlds for platforms and OS. Using
my Commodore fanaticism as a basis of a different platform. One that
would/could be found on a world. Discussed emulators, like in the first
part of this reply. I just don't remember how those topics ended of if
they did?

BCNU
Lord Ronin from Q-Link

-- 
D4 C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= D8
D10 Commodore PCs, Sci/Fi/Fan, Fantasy, Espionage, Role Playing Games  D20
D6 C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C=D30

From rik_packham at yahoo.com  Sat Mar  1 15:13:03 2008
From: rik_packham at yahoo.com (Rycharde, Rex Lancaster)
Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2008 14:13:03 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Handgun 6?
In-Reply-To: <f495db580803010929qe58e39et955cee29783dc0bb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <106458.8652.qm@web31915.mail.mud.yahoo.com>


> And they guy with dex 3?
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6lzCmxbDDk&NR=1
> 

HAHAHAHA!!! You were kind, I don't know if I'd give
him a DEX of 3.

Rik "Rycharde" Packham

"Remember, wherever you go, there you are."
--Buckaroo Banzai

"There are no such things as dangerous weapons, only dangerous men.  My job is to teach you to be dangerous men." Sargent Zim, "Starship Troopers"
-- Robert Heinlein.


      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Looking for last minute shopping deals?  
Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.  http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping

From lordronin at vcsweb.com  Sat Mar  1 15:15:25 2008
From: lordronin at vcsweb.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2008 08:45:25 +1030 (CST)
Subject: [TML] NY Reload
In-Reply-To: <f495db580802292308h482cf57dubd424aab71162b0b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5aca9be50802272150j7f4e98f7m3d426a6124915f83@mail.gmail.com>
	<264586.80550.qm@web31902.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<f495db580802292308h482cf57dubd424aab71162b0b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0803020837130.19272@localhost>

Hoi Douglas:

On Sat, 1 Mar 2008, Knapp wrote:

> Don't know about your guns but mine has a button that shoots the old
> clip out, so step one is not much of a step. And draw new weapon? What
> about the old one? Just dropping it? That could get expensive. Re
> holster it, more time or shoot left handed??

 Well I usually shoot left handed {G}.

 Here is a fly to toss into this topic for game use. So far all I have
heard is cartridge firearms. In game dealing with Tech level of a world.
We will find BLack Powder Muzzle loaders. OK that is what I primarily
shoot. So then for a single shot is it fire, duck, roll for cover. Pour
powder, wet patch, blace ball on top, use ball starter, then ramrod, place
cap on nipple, take aim and hope the other guy is slower than you {VBG}.

 Revolvers that are Muzzle loaded are around as well. Here there are 6
shots, on average {I really want the 9 shot LaMatt}. Carrying extra
cylinders was not uncommon. Reload times are still slow.  Basically pop
out the pin, don't drop it, I have, slide out empty cylinder, pocekt same,
slide in new filled cyclinder, replace pin. Hope that it is in tight
enough. Oh yeah and hope that the cylinders are stock and not hand made.
WOn't fit in the latter case.

BCNU
Lord Ronin from Q-Link

-- 
D4 C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= D8
D10 Commodore PCs, Sci/Fi/Fan, Fantasy, Espionage, Role Playing Games  D20
D6 C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C=D30

From rik_packham at yahoo.com  Sat Mar  1 15:26:30 2008
From: rik_packham at yahoo.com (Rycharde, Rex Lancaster)
Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2008 14:26:30 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] NY Reload
In-Reply-To: <3DBC3B42-7CE6-4ECD-9C48-25C12658D0AB@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <526217.56295.qm@web31901.mail.mud.yahoo.com>


> Actually, with a modern auto and skill it's;
> 
> 1.  Gun hand hits mag release while off hand draws
> spare mag
> 2.  Insert fresh mag

Oops, forgot the mag release. My bad.

Rik "Rycharde" Packham

"Remember, wherever you go, there you are."
--Buckaroo Banzai

"There are no such things as dangerous weapons, only dangerous men.  My job is to teach you to be dangerous men." Sargent Zim, "Starship Troopers"
-- Robert Heinlein.


      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Never miss a thing.  Make Yahoo your home page. 
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

From penguin_boy at mindspring.com  Sat Mar  1 16:31:20 2008
From: penguin_boy at mindspring.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2008 15:31:20 -0800
Subject: [TML] Thousand Suns review
Message-ID: <E1JVbQu-0004hL-TX@elasmtp-junco.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

http://gridlore.livejournal.com/1174654.html

In short, I love it.

--

Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry - penguin_boy at mindspring.com
http://gridlore.livejournal.com/

"I have often had the impression that, to penguins, man is just
another penguin -- different, less predictable,  occasionally violent,
but tolerable company when he sits still and minds his own business."



From stosh at sympatico.ca  Sat Mar  1 16:57:49 2008
From: stosh at sympatico.ca (Michael Stasica)
Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2008 18:57:49 -0500
Subject: [TML] NY Reload
In-Reply-To: <f495db580802292308h482cf57dubd424aab71162b0b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5aca9be50802272150j7f4e98f7m3d426a6124915f83@mail.gmail.com>
	<264586.80550.qm@web31902.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<f495db580802292308h482cf57dubd424aab71162b0b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <op.t7c3inzp4unwo7@your-92ff8e5773-futureshop-gateway-refurb>

On Sat, 01 Mar 2008 02:08:50 -0500, Knapp <magick.crow at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sat, Mar 1, 2008 at 6:11 AM, Rycharde, Rex Lancaster
> <rik_packham at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> action 1: pull empty magazine,
>>  action 2: get new mag
>>  action 3: insert mag
>>
>>  action 1: draw new weapon
>>
>>  think i'll go for the new weapon
>>
>>  --- Richard Aiken <raikenclw at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Don't know about your guns but mine has a button that shoots the old
> clip out, so step one is not much of a step. And draw new weapon? What
> about the old one? Just dropping it? That could get expensive. Re
> holster it, more time or shoot left handed??
>


Just drop it if the lanyard is attached to something you will not lose.
The obvious problem is walking around with the handgun version of a grass  
skirt. :)

Michael

From jerry.barrington at gmail.com  Sat Mar  1 17:34:10 2008
From: jerry.barrington at gmail.com (Jerry W Barrington)
Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2008 19:34:10 -0500
Subject: [TML] Thousand Suns review
In-Reply-To: <E1JVbQu-0004hL-TX@elasmtp-junco.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <C3EF6032.12BEC%jerry.barrington@gmail.com>

On 3/1/08 6:31 PM, "Douglas Berry" <penguin_boy at mindspring.com> wrote:

> http://gridlore.livejournal.com/1174654.html
> 
> In short, I love it.

Chargen sound like a very well thought out system.  Greatly simplifies on
the complications of CT.  I wonder though, and truly novice characters.  Do
the rules have any way to choose only 1 or 2 career packages?

One thing on the damage:
    "I like this because better shots are more likely to hit center mass and
do more damage."

Firing at center of mass is intended to maximize the chance of hitting.
Where center of mass is on the targets body may depend on cover.  It won't
necessarily be more damaging.

Otherwise, the combat system seems a little abstract for my taste.
Personally, I *like* moving miniatures around on a map.  :)  Same for the
world detail.

I might have to pick this up some time, for the chargen ideas if nothing
else.


From jerry.barrington at gmail.com  Sun Mar  2 01:06:39 2008
From: jerry.barrington at gmail.com (Jerry W Barrington)
Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2008 03:06:39 -0500
Subject: [TML] Planets in binary systems
Message-ID: <C3EFCA3F.12BF5%jerry.barrington@gmail.com>

Planets can orbit far from a pair of stars, or close to either of the stars.
"Close" is often quoted as about 1/3 of the way to the other star.  A useful
rule of thumb, but it assumes the stars are equal mass.  Obviously, if one
is much less massive than the other, it's planets must be much closer in.
This is why Jupiter can't have moons 1.7 AU out!  (Even if there weren't
other planets affecting things)

I think a more accurate figure would be 1/2 of the way to the nearest
Lagrange point, at their closest approach.  Unfortunately, I can't seem to
find simple equations for the locations of of L1/2/3 for arbitrary masses.
:(

I tried looking at the Hill sphere too, but all the online info I can find
on Hill and Lagrange assume one mass much greater than the other.  Any
suggestions where I could find more general equations?  Or even an easy
derivation?  :)


From shadow at shadowgard.com  Sun Mar  2 01:53:10 2008
From: shadow at shadowgard.com (shadow at shadowgard.com)
Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2008 00:53:10 -0800
Subject: [TML] Planets in binary systems
In-Reply-To: <C3EFCA3F.12BF5%jerry.barrington@gmail.com>
References: <C3EFCA3F.12BF5%jerry.barrington@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47C9FA76.24233.245B5E76@shadow.shadowgard.com>

On 2 Mar 2008 at 3:06, Jerry W Barrington wrote:

> Planets can orbit far from a pair of stars, or close to either of the stars.
> "Close" is often quoted as about 1/3 of the way to the other star.  A useful
> rule of thumb, but it assumes the stars are equal mass.  Obviously, if one
> is much less massive than the other, it's planets must be much closer in.
> This is why Jupiter can't have moons 1.7 AU out!  (Even if there weren't
> other planets affecting things)
> 
> I think a more accurate figure would be 1/2 of the way to the nearest
> Lagrange point, at their closest approach.  Unfortunately, I can't seem to
> find simple equations for the locations of of L1/2/3 for arbitrary masses.
> :(

Nope, Lagrange points are very special cases.

"Simplest" is to merely figure out the distance where the gravity of 
the star and that of the planet balance. You won't find "real" 
satellites (and not much "captured" stuff either) outside that point. 


Most notable exception is the Earth/Moon system. But then again 
careful analysis shows that the moon doesn't really orbit the earth, 
it just shares an orbit with Earth.

> I tried looking at the Hill sphere too, but all the online info I can find
> on Hill and Lagrange assume one mass much greater than the other.  Any
> suggestions where I could find more general equations?  Or even an easy
> derivation?  :)

There *are* no *solvable* general equations for the three body 
problem.

The Lagrange point solution is a special case and *requires* those 
substantial mass differences to work.

--
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow)
shadow at shadowgard dot com



From tim at little-possums.net  Sun Mar  2 03:35:12 2008
From: tim at little-possums.net (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2008 21:35:12 +1100
Subject: [TML] Planets in binary systems
In-Reply-To: <C3EFCA3F.12BF5%jerry.barrington@gmail.com>
References: <C3EFCA3F.12BF5%jerry.barrington@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20080302103512.GG3663@soprano.little-possums.net>

On Sun, Mar 02, 2008 at 03:06:39AM -0500, Jerry W Barrington wrote:
> I think a more accurate figure would be 1/2 of the way to the nearest
> Lagrange point, at their closest approach.  Unfortunately, I can't seem to
> find simple equations for the locations of of L1/2/3 for arbitrary masses.

There is an equation that can be solved for the positions, but it's a
quintic.  They tend to be nasty to solve exactly.

However, it really doesn't matter a great deal.  The distance of the
L1 & L2 points doesn't really change a great deal from the simpler
approximation for the Hill radius R (M2 / (3 M1))^(1/3), where R is
the distance between the stars.

Even at the extreme case where M1 = M2, the true L2 point is almost
identical to that given by the formula.  L1 is a bit out, since it
should be at the barycentre.  It is wrong by about 30%, which isn't
too bad for applying a formula to a situation way outside its
assumptions.


- Tim

From tim at little-possums.net  Sun Mar  2 03:47:25 2008
From: tim at little-possums.net (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2008 21:47:25 +1100
Subject: [TML] Planets in binary systems
In-Reply-To: <47C9FA76.24233.245B5E76@shadow.shadowgard.com>
References: <C3EFCA3F.12BF5%jerry.barrington@gmail.com>
	<47C9FA76.24233.245B5E76@shadow.shadowgard.com>
Message-ID: <20080302104725.GH3663@soprano.little-possums.net>

On Sun, Mar 02, 2008 at 12:53:10AM -0800, shadow at shadowgard.com wrote:
> Most notable exception is the Earth/Moon system. But then again
> careful analysis shows that the moon doesn't really orbit the earth,
> it just shares an orbit with Earth.

If the Moon's orbit were perturbed, it would remain gravitationally
bound to the Earth.  It is only weakly bound, true, but still bound.


> There *are* no *solvable* general equations for the three body
> problem.

There are solutions for the three body problem in the simple case
where all three rotate about a barycenter with constant angular
velocity.


> The Lagrange point solution is a special case and *requires* those
> substantial mass differences to work.

Only for stability (which only applies to the L4/5 cases anyway).


- Tim

From webmaster at travellercentral.com  Sun Mar  2 08:19:19 2008
From: webmaster at travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2008 08:19:19 -0700
Subject: [TML] NY Reload
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0803020837130.19272@localhost>
References: <5aca9be50802272150j7f4e98f7m3d426a6124915f83@mail.gmail.com>
	<264586.80550.qm@web31902.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<f495db580802292308h482cf57dubd424aab71162b0b@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.58.0803020837130.19272@localhost>
Message-ID: <BE9E40F0-DA8D-4110-ACE9-187AD0647830@travellercentral.com>

>
> Well I usually shoot left handed {G}.
>
> Here is a fly to toss into this topic for game use. So far all I have
> heard is cartridge firearms. In game dealing with Tech level of a  
> world.
> We will find BLack Powder Muzzle loaders. OK that is what I primarily
> shoot. So then for a single shot is it fire, duck, roll for cover.  
> Pour
> powder, wet patch, blace ball on top, use ball starter, then ramrod,  
> place
> cap on nipple, take aim and hope the other guy is slower than you  
> {VBG}.
>
> Revolvers that are Muzzle loaded are around as well. Here there are 6
> shots, on average {I really want the 9 shot LaMatt}. Carrying extra
> cylinders was not uncommon. Reload times are still slow.  Basically  
> pop
> out the pin, don't drop it, I have, slide out empty cylinder, pocekt  
> same,
> slide in new filled cyclinder, replace pin. Hope that it is in tight
> enough. Oh yeah and hope that the cylinders are stock and not hand  
> made.
> WOn't fit in the latter case.


The ability to swap cylinders depends in large measure on the  
revolver.  You could do this with the Remington army in a reasonable  
amount of time (less than a minute) because you only had to drop the  
loading lever, and the pull the cylinder pin, allowing removal and  
replacement of the cylinder.  In the case of Colt revolvers, you had  
to hamer th frame wedge out, the hammer the frame apart - basically  
disassembling the gun.  It takes at least 5 minutes, during which you  
have to try to not lose anything.

Carrying an swapping cylinders is basically confined to the Remington  
Army model and no other contemporary civil war era cap and ball.

Contrary to TV and movies, this was probably not a common practice,  
since sales records from Remington show that very few additional  
cylinders were sold with the Army model revolver.  It was far more  
common to carry multiple revolvers.  Quantrill's men for example,  
typically carries four or more.  However, these irregular troops  
provided their own arms.  Regular line officers of both sides normally  
carries a single revolver and perhaps a dozen rounds or less.


Finally, these are not technically muzzle loaders anyway, since they  
are loaded at the cylinder.

From webmaster at travellercentral.com  Sun Mar  2 08:27:29 2008
From: webmaster at travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2008 08:27:29 -0700
Subject: [TML] NY Reload
In-Reply-To: <op.t7c3inzp4unwo7@your-92ff8e5773-futureshop-gateway-refurb>
References: <5aca9be50802272150j7f4e98f7m3d426a6124915f83@mail.gmail.com>
	<264586.80550.qm@web31902.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<f495db580802292308h482cf57dubd424aab71162b0b@mail.gmail.com>
	<op.t7c3inzp4unwo7@your-92ff8e5773-futureshop-gateway-refurb>
Message-ID: <F9858463-F05B-4F74-8B6F-2E00CAC2586F@travellercentral.com>

The actuality is that the carrying of a second handgun (the backup)  
has little or nothing to do with the speed of reload and everything to  
do with being ready for a weapons malfunction.  The NY reload is  
probably more an invention of fiction unless, as Ronin notes, you have  
a weapon that is impossible to reload in any reasonable amount of time.

Consider:

Your backup probably won't be as accessible as you primary weapon.   
There is not going to be any fast draw unless you are ambidextrous and  
have a similar holster and weapon on the off side.  Assuming you are  
doing strong-side carry, with you gun  in  concealable position like  
in a kidney holster, where exactly is your second gun?  Ankle holster?

By contrast, if you carry your handgun strong-side, your ammo  
(magazine or speed loader) is right where you can reach it quickly  
with your off hand.

It's doubtful that with a TL or better handgun with some sort of  
loading device (either magazine or ammo carrier like a speed-loader)  
that you are going to be able to retrieve a back faster than you can  
reload.

From tom.cusworth at googlemail.com  Sun Mar  2 08:30:07 2008
From: tom.cusworth at googlemail.com (Tom Cusworth)
Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2008 15:30:07 +0000
Subject: [TML] Off topic Linux Question
Message-ID: <4b5cc71a0803020730g78ec92f7x37d761173127d624@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,

Apologies for the non-Traveller content, I wanted to seek some advice...

Since I have heard a load of you mention that you either use, or have much
experience with Linux, I thought that this might be a good place to get some
advice...

I have an old (2001) desktop PC (a Packard Bell iMedia machine) that I have
been trying to get any one of two versions of Linux running on, so that I
can try out this OS.

The Specs for the PC are a 1.1gig processor (P3), 256Mb Ram, an NVidia 32Mb
graphics card and about 8 gig left on a 20 gig HDD. Current OS is Windows XP
Home with SP 2 installed...

I tried to install Mandriva Linux and then, when that failed, I tried
Ubuntu...

I burned the ISOs for the disks onto CDs using the CD writer on the machine
in question.

When I get to the boot screen, I am confronted by a number of options. I
chose "Install/Run" (or similar wording) on both Linux versions.

However, it seems to be booting fine, then it gets so far (to a screen with
a animated progress bar that runs from left to right) then it hangs... It
allows no keyboard input and I have to start all over again.

I know there's nothing wrong with the disks, as they both work fine on my
laptop (a Dell Inspiron 6000).

Can anyone suggest a fix to get either Mandriva or Ubuntu running on my
desktop (I do not mind losing Windows completely - it will probably be a
blessing).

Feel free to contact me off-list with suggestions, I know that the TML is
for Traveller-related content...

Thanks,

Tom


-- 
Blessed are the cheapskates, for they shall see god and still have change of
a fiver - Tom Holt, Valhalla.

Want Googlemail? Ask me & I'll invite you!

From jerry.barrington at gmail.com  Sun Mar  2 11:42:07 2008
From: jerry.barrington at gmail.com (Jerry W Barrington)
Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2008 13:42:07 -0500
Subject: [TML] Planets in binary systems
In-Reply-To: <47C9FA76.24233.245B5E76@shadow.shadowgard.com>
Message-ID: <C3F05F2F.12C06%jerry.barrington@gmail.com>

On 3/2/08 3:53 AM, "shadow at shadowgard.com" <shadow at shadowgard.com> wrote:

> On 2 Mar 2008 at 3:06, Jerry W Barrington wrote:
> 
>> Planets can orbit far from a pair of stars, or close to either of the stars.
>> "Close" is often quoted as about 1/3 of the way to the other star.  A useful
>> rule of thumb, but it assumes the stars are equal mass.  Obviously, if one
>> is much less massive than the other, it's planets must be much closer in.
>> This is why Jupiter can't have moons 1.7 AU out!  (Even if there weren't
>> other planets affecting things)
>> 
>> I think a more accurate figure would be 1/2 of the way to the nearest
>> Lagrange point, at their closest approach.  Unfortunately, I can't seem to
>> find simple equations for the locations of of L1/2/3 for arbitrary masses.
>> :(
> 
> Nope, Lagrange points are very special cases.
> 
> "Simplest" is to merely figure out the distance where the gravity of
> the star and that of the planet balance. You won't find "real"
> satellites (and not much "captured" stuff either) outside that point.

This is either L1 (inner) or L2 (outer) of the planet relative to the star.
Useful for limiting the range of moons/satellites, but not my issue at the
moment.  See below.

> Most notable exception is the Earth/Moon system. But then again
> careful analysis shows that the moon doesn't really orbit the earth,
> it just shares an orbit with Earth.
> 
>> I tried looking at the Hill sphere too, but all the online info I can find
>> on Hill and Lagrange assume one mass much greater than the other.  Any
>> suggestions where I could find more general equations?  Or even an easy
>> derivation?  :)
> 
> There *are* no *solvable* general equations for the three body
> problem.
> 
> The Lagrange point solution is a special case and *requires* those
> substantial mass differences to work.

I think you may have read too much into my question.  I'm not looking to
place planets at the L points, nor solve the 3-body problem.  I merely want
to find L1/2/3 for any 2 *stars*.  These are just those balance points due
to the masses of the stars.  L4/5 are easy, just equilateral triangles, but
I'm not interested in those.

See, if a planet is orbiting 1 star of a pair, and it's orbit exceeds L1
between the stars, it can flip to the other star.  That's not stable.
Likewise, if it exceeds L2/3, it can flip to orbiting both, or escape.
Again, unstable.  Since even approaching those distances risks instability,
I'll cut those distances to about 1/2 or 1/3, as a safety margin.

And yes, the Lagrange points always exist, they are, as you said, where the
forces balance.  They just aren't stable orbits for many configurations.  I
just don't want them for that purpose.  I just want equations showing the
L1/2/3 points for 2 stars given there mass in Sols and distance in AUs.  Or
could be done in kg and km and convert it, whatever.


From jerry.barrington at gmail.com  Sun Mar  2 11:49:34 2008
From: jerry.barrington at gmail.com (Jerry W Barrington)
Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2008 13:49:34 -0500
Subject: [TML] Planets in binary systems
In-Reply-To: <20080302103512.GG3663@soprano.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <C3F060EE.12C09%jerry.barrington@gmail.com>

On 3/2/08 5:35 AM, "Timothy Little" <tim at little-possums.net> wrote:

> On Sun, Mar 02, 2008 at 03:06:39AM -0500, Jerry W Barrington wrote:
>> I think a more accurate figure would be 1/2 of the way to the nearest
>> Lagrange point, at their closest approach.  Unfortunately, I can't seem to
>> find simple equations for the locations of of L1/2/3 for arbitrary masses.
> 
> There is an equation that can be solved for the positions, but it's a
> quintic.  They tend to be nasty to solve exactly.
> 
> However, it really doesn't matter a great deal.  The distance of the
> L1 & L2 points doesn't really change a great deal from the simpler
> approximation for the Hill radius R (M2 / (3 M1))^(1/3), where R is
> the distance between the stars.
> 
> Even at the extreme case where M1 = M2, the true L2 point is almost
> identical to that given by the formula.  L1 is a bit out, since it
> should be at the barycentre.  It is wrong by about 30%, which isn't
> too bad for applying a formula to a situation way outside its
> assumptions.

Yeah, I looked at the Hill sphere.  For equal masses, it puts L1, as figured
from either star, about 69% of the way to the other star, when it should be
exactly 50%.  That seems a pretty major error to me.  I've pretty much
concluded from my research that L1 will always be closer than L2 or L3, so
just being able to find that one would be sufficient.  Since it's to be done
by computer, I don't mind the math being a little ugly.


From jerry.barrington at gmail.com  Sun Mar  2 12:19:49 2008
From: jerry.barrington at gmail.com (Jerry W Barrington)
Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2008 14:19:49 -0500
Subject: [TML] NY Reload
In-Reply-To: <F9858463-F05B-4F74-8B6F-2E00CAC2586F@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <C3F06805.12C0B%jerry.barrington@gmail.com>

On 3/2/08 10:27 AM, "Tod Glenn" <webmaster at travellercentral.com> wrote:

> The actuality is that the carrying of a second handgun (the backup)
> has little or nothing to do with the speed of reload and everything to
> do with being ready for a weapons malfunction.  The NY reload is
> probably more an invention of fiction unless, as Ronin notes, you have
> a weapon that is impossible to reload in any reasonable amount of time.

My research of the term said it originated in a time when NYC police were
*required* to carry revolves, and disallowed from carrying speed-loaders or
considered them unwieldy.  It mentions both running empty and jamming.  I
can't verify the truth of that.  It doesn't show as a hoax on Snopes, but
then it's doesn't seem like something they'd cover without a specific story.
Short of expert testimony from a number of known NYPD of that time, who can
say for sure?


From jerry.barrington at gmail.com  Sun Mar  2 13:27:35 2008
From: jerry.barrington at gmail.com (Jerry W Barrington)
Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2008 15:27:35 -0500
Subject: [TML] Near Star List
Message-ID: <C3F077E7.12C0E%jerry.barrington@gmail.com>

For Ken, and any others looking for a good list of stars near other:

I've given up on proofreading the original 2300 NSL.  There were just too
many errors, and I'd need to duplicate the original work to fix it all.
However, this has pretty much been done, and based on more modern data.  The
old NSL was based on Gliese's 1969 catalog (#2).  Gliese 3 (1991) has more
accurate data, and was transcribed from computer files.  A list and a couple
maps of it are available here:

    <http://www.robmyers.org/jiex/2301/avril/gliese3_nsl.html>

Some stars have moved, and some moved all the way outside the 50 LY range.
But that's not a problem unless you are seriously attached to the original
2300 map...


From garry.e.ward at worldnet.att.net  Sun Mar  2 14:11:08 2008
From: garry.e.ward at worldnet.att.net (Garry Ward)
Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2008 16:11:08 -0500
Subject: [TML] Near Star List
References: <C3F077E7.12C0E%jerry.barrington@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000901c87ca9$f9405800$f82d4b0c@YOURFEDDA97C02>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jerry W Barrington" <jerry.barrington at gmail.com>
To: "TML" <tml at travellercentral.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2008 3:27 PM
Subject: [TML] Near Star List


> For Ken, and any others looking for a good list of stars near other:
>
> I've given up on proofreading the original 2300 NSL.  There were just too
> many errors, and I'd need to duplicate the original work to fix it all.
> However, this has pretty much been done, and based on more modern data. 
> The
> old NSL was based on Gliese's 1969 catalog (#2).  Gliese 3 (1991) has more
> accurate data, and was transcribed from computer files.  A list and a 
> couple
> maps of it are available here:
>
>    <http://www.robmyers.org/jiex/2301/avril/gliese3_nsl.html>
>
That'll save me some time and carpall tunnel...

Though, I'm not sure what a dG or dM class star is supposed to be. Might be 
a typeo or some astronomicial jargon that I'm not familliar with.


Garry
> Some stars have moved, and some moved all the way outside the 50 LY range.
> But that's not a problem unless you are seriously attached to the original
> 2300 map...
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML at travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 



From magick.crow at gmail.com  Sun Mar  2 15:04:37 2008
From: magick.crow at gmail.com (Knapp)
Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2008 23:04:37 +0100
Subject: [TML] Off topic Linux Question
In-Reply-To: <4b5cc71a0803020730g78ec92f7x37d761173127d624@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4b5cc71a0803020730g78ec92f7x37d761173127d624@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f495db580803021404t6f5144cam9350e3c3d9a31ca9@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Mar 2, 2008 at 4:30 PM, Tom Cusworth
<tom.cusworth at googlemail.com> wrote:
> Hello,
>
>  Apologies for the non-Traveller content, I wanted to seek some advice...
>
>  Since I have heard a load of you mention that you either use, or have much
>  experience with Linux, I thought that this might be a good place to get some
>  advice...
>
>  I have an old (2001) desktop PC (a Packard Bell iMedia machine) that I have
>  been trying to get any one of two versions of Linux running on, so that I
>  can try out this OS.
>
>  The Specs for the PC are a 1.1gig processor (P3), 256Mb Ram, an NVidia 32Mb
>  graphics card and about 8 gig left on a 20 gig HDD. Current OS is Windows XP
>  Home with SP 2 installed...
>
>  I tried to install Mandriva Linux and then, when that failed, I tried
>  Ubuntu...
>
>  I burned the ISOs for the disks onto CDs using the CD writer on the machine
>  in question.
>
>  When I get to the boot screen, I am confronted by a number of options. I
>  chose "Install/Run" (or similar wording) on both Linux versions.
>
>  However, it seems to be booting fine, then it gets so far (to a screen with
>  a animated progress bar that runs from left to right) then it hangs... It
>  allows no keyboard input and I have to start all over again.
>
>  I know there's nothing wrong with the disks, as they both work fine on my
>  laptop (a Dell Inspiron 6000).
>
>  Can anyone suggest a fix to get either Mandriva or Ubuntu running on my
>  desktop (I do not mind losing Windows completely - it will probably be a
>  blessing).
>
>  Feel free to contact me off-list with suggestions, I know that the TML is
>  for Traveller-related content...
>
>  Thanks,
>
>  Tom
>

I have had this problem with my old lap tops. It is a lack of memory
problem. (of course there are other things it could be, this is best
guess.)
The best ubuntu for small systems is  Xubuntu or maybe Fluxubunt but I
love kubuntu (for big systems but it might work on yours with the alt
install.).
In any case try to install using the alt disk.

>From their web site about the alt disk.
> It installs on systems with less than about 320MB of RAM (although note that low-memory systems may not be able to run a full desktop environment reasonably).

Another thing to think about is that the up coming release of ubuntu
is the one with long term support, if you care about such things. I
don't.

Also you can try Damn small linux and see if the works. Boot it to
memory, if it will work, for the kick of seeing your old computer run
faster than your friends new system with windows on it.

Check out distro watch for a bunch of other ideas.
http://distrowatch.com/

If you need more lets take it off list.


-- 
Douglas E Knapp
http://sf-journey-creations.wikispot.org/Front_Page

From jerry.barrington at gmail.com  Sun Mar  2 15:13:51 2008
From: jerry.barrington at gmail.com (Jerry W Barrington)
Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2008 17:13:51 -0500
Subject: [TML] Near Star List
In-Reply-To: <000901c87ca9$f9405800$f82d4b0c@YOURFEDDA97C02>
Message-ID: <C3F090CF.12C13%jerry.barrington@gmail.com>

On 3/2/08 4:11 PM, "Garry Ward" <garry.e.ward at worldnet.att.net> wrote:

> That'll save me some time and carpall tunnel...

That's part of why I abandoned my own effort.  :)  That, and the inherent
errors in the old list...

> Though, I'm not sure what a dG or dM class star is supposed to be. Might be
> a typeo or some astronomicial jargon that I'm not familliar with.

Hmm.  Dwarf G & M stars?

Check this:
    <http://www.perrochon.com/cherryh/ref/txt/stars.txt>

"dA, dG, and dM are white dwarfs (post-Giant phase stars), M are small red
stars, K are slightly larger orange stars, G are yellow stars like Sol, F
are white stars larger than Sol, .... (CJC has not sited a colony at a star
larger than F)."


From sburchett at gmail.com  Sun Mar  2 15:14:07 2008
From: sburchett at gmail.com (Steve Burchett)
Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2008 16:14:07 -0600
Subject: [TML] Near Star List
In-Reply-To: <000901c87ca9$f9405800$f82d4b0c@YOURFEDDA97C02>
References: <C3F077E7.12C0E%jerry.barrington@gmail.com>
	<000901c87ca9$f9405800$f82d4b0c@YOURFEDDA97C02>
Message-ID: <3cf5ea650803021414l6d051ebas384ac398f05dce73@mail.gmail.com>

I'm not sure if this will go through, but I've converted it to a Excel file.

Steve

From garry.e.ward at worldnet.att.net  Sun Mar  2 15:45:39 2008
From: garry.e.ward at worldnet.att.net (Garry Ward)
Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2008 17:45:39 -0500
Subject: [TML] Near Star List
References: <C3F077E7.12C0E%jerry.barrington@gmail.com><000901c87ca9$f9405800$f82d4b0c@YOURFEDDA97C02>
	<3cf5ea650803021414l6d051ebas384ac398f05dce73@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001501c87cb7$2631b3b0$b02c4b0c@YOURFEDDA97C02>

Didn't see an Excel attachment.

Though a nice CSV would be useful.

Perhaps you could get it posted to Free Lance Traveller as a downloadable 
item.


Garry
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve Burchett" <sburchett at gmail.com>
To: "The Traveller Mailing List" <tml at travellercentral.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2008 5:14 PM
Subject: Re: [TML] Near Star List


> I'm not sure if this will go through, but I've converted it to a Excel 
> file.
>
> Steve
>


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML at travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 



From kaine665 at optimum.net  Sun Mar  2 16:12:08 2008
From: kaine665 at optimum.net (Kaine)
Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2008 18:12:08 -0500
Subject: [TML] Heaven & Earth Program
Message-ID: <47CB3448.3090701@optimum.net>

I downloaded Heaven & Earth yesterday.  It won't seem to run.  Vista 
claims that "TwistedPixel.ocx" is missing or corrupted.  I tried 
removing and reinstalling the program & reinstalling the component as 
per the read me file.  Is this Vista problem.

Kaine

From sburchett at gmail.com  Sun Mar  2 16:36:23 2008
From: sburchett at gmail.com (Steve Burchett)
Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2008 17:36:23 -0600
Subject: [TML] Near Star List
In-Reply-To: <001501c87cb7$2631b3b0$b02c4b0c@YOURFEDDA97C02>
References: <C3F077E7.12C0E%jerry.barrington@gmail.com>
	<000901c87ca9$f9405800$f82d4b0c@YOURFEDDA97C02>
	<3cf5ea650803021414l6d051ebas384ac398f05dce73@mail.gmail.com>
	<001501c87cb7$2631b3b0$b02c4b0c@YOURFEDDA97C02>
Message-ID: <3cf5ea650803021536q6c9fd1e7j18123c74a5bfe2a5@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Mar 2, 2008 at 4:45 PM, Garry Ward <garry.e.ward at worldnet.att.net>
wrote:

> Didn't see an Excel attachment.
>
> Though a nice CSV would be useful.
>

http://www.da-business.net/traveller/near-star-list.csv

From tom.cusworth at googlemail.com  Sun Mar  2 16:39:33 2008
From: tom.cusworth at googlemail.com (Tom Cusworth)
Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2008 23:39:33 +0000
Subject: [TML] Off topic Linux Question
In-Reply-To: <f495db580803021404t6f5144cam9350e3c3d9a31ca9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4b5cc71a0803020730g78ec92f7x37d761173127d624@mail.gmail.com>
	<f495db580803021404t6f5144cam9350e3c3d9a31ca9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4b5cc71a0803021539mff8e67y87aca5f03d05103f@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks Douglas. I'll try your suggestions.

Off-list email on the way, though.

-Tom

On 02/03/2008, Knapp <magick.crow at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Sun, Mar 2, 2008 at 4:30 PM, Tom Cusworth
> <tom.cusworth at googlemail.com> wrote:
> > Hello,
> >
> >  Apologies for the non-Traveller content, I wanted to seek some
> advice...
> >
> >  Since I have heard a load of you mention that you either use, or have
> much
> >  experience with Linux, I thought that this might be a good place to get
> some
> >  advice...
> >
> >  I have an old (2001) desktop PC (a Packard Bell iMedia machine) that I
> have
> >  been trying to get any one of two versions of Linux running on, so that
> I
> >  can try out this OS.
> >
> >  The Specs for the PC are a 1.1gig processor (P3), 256Mb Ram, an NVidia
> 32Mb
> >  graphics card and about 8 gig left on a 20 gig HDD. Current OS is
> Windows XP
> >  Home with SP 2 installed...
> >
> >  I tried to install Mandriva Linux and then, when that failed, I tried
> >  Ubuntu...
> >
> >  I burned the ISOs for the disks onto CDs using the CD writer on the
> machine
> >  in question.
> >
> >  When I get to the boot screen, I am confronted by a number of options.
> I
> >  chose "Install/Run" (or similar wording) on both Linux versions.
> >
> >  However, it seems to be booting fine, then it gets so far (to a screen
> with
> >  a animated progress bar that runs from left to right) then it hangs...
> It
> >  allows no keyboard input and I have to start all over again.
> >
> >  I know there's nothing wrong with the disks, as they both work fine on
> my
> >  laptop (a Dell Inspiron 6000).
> >
> >  Can anyone suggest a fix to get either Mandriva or Ubuntu running on my
> >  desktop (I do not mind losing Windows completely - it will probably be
> a
> >  blessing).
> >
> >  Feel free to contact me off-list with suggestions, I know that the TML
> is
> >  for Traveller-related content...
> >
> >  Thanks,
> >
> >  Tom
> >
>
>
> I have had this problem with my old lap tops. It is a lack of memory
> problem. (of course there are other things it could be, this is best
> guess.)
> The best ubuntu for small systems is  Xubuntu or maybe Fluxubunt but I
> love kubuntu (for big systems but it might work on yours with the alt
> install.).
> In any case try to install using the alt disk.
>
> >From their web site about the alt disk.
> > It installs on systems with less than about 320MB of RAM (although note
> that low-memory systems may not be able to run a full desktop environment
> reasonably).
>
> Another thing to think about is that the up coming release of ubuntu
> is the one with long term support, if you care about such things. I
> don't.
>
> Also you can try Damn small linux and see if the works. Boot it to
> memory, if it will work, for the kick of seeing your old computer run
> faster than your friends new system with windows on it.
>
> Check out distro watch for a bunch of other ideas.
> http://distrowatch.com/
>
> If you need more lets take it off list.
>
>
>
> --
> Douglas E Knapp
> http://sf-journey-creations.wikispot.org/Front_Page
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML at travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>



-- 
Blessed are the cheapskates, for they shall see god and still have change of
a fiver - Tom Holt, Valhalla.

Want Googlemail? Ask me & I'll invite you!

From jzeitlin at spamcop.net  Sun Mar  2 16:48:44 2008
From: jzeitlin at spamcop.net (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2008 18:48:44 -0500
Subject: [TML] Near Star List
In-Reply-To: <001501c87cb7$2631b3b0$b02c4b0c@YOURFEDDA97C02>
References: <C3F077E7.12C0E%jerry.barrington@gmail.com><000901c87ca9$f9405800$f82d4b0c@YOURFEDDA97C02>
	<3cf5ea650803021414l6d051ebas384ac398f05dce73@mail.gmail.com>
	<001501c87cb7$2631b3b0$b02c4b0c@YOURFEDDA97C02>
Message-ID: <i1fms3lsjebeohfvtoon5b6d04i0l4jg45@4ax.com>

On Sun, 2 Mar 2008 17:45:39 -0500, "Garry Ward"
<garry.e.ward at worldnet.att.net> wrote:

>Didn't see an Excel attachment.

>Though a nice CSV would be useful.

>Perhaps you could get it posted to Free Lance Traveller as a downloadable 
>item.

No reason why not; send it to submissions at freelancetraveller.com with an
appropriate description and some contact info, and I can toss it in the
next time I do an update.  Even better would be if it was accompanied by
an article about Traveller in a 3-d universe using real star positions,
but whether that happens is entirely up to you.

From jerry.barrington at gmail.com  Sun Mar  2 16:50:35 2008
From: jerry.barrington at gmail.com (Jerry W Barrington)
Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2008 18:50:35 -0500
Subject: [TML] Near Star List
In-Reply-To: <3cf5ea650803021536q6c9fd1e7j18123c74a5bfe2a5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C3F0A77B.12C1D%jerry.barrington@gmail.com>

On 3/2/08 6:36 PM, "Steve Burchett" <sburchett at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sun, Mar 2, 2008 at 4:45 PM, Garry Ward <garry.e.ward at worldnet.att.net>
> wrote:
> 
>> Didn't see an Excel attachment.
>> 
>> Though a nice CSV would be useful.
>> 
> 
> http://www.da-business.net/traveller/near-star-list.csv

Yeah, the list scrubs all attachments.  It's a safety issue.  :(


From kaine665 at optimum.net  Sun Mar  2 16:59:47 2008
From: kaine665 at optimum.net (Kaine)
Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2008 18:59:47 -0500
Subject: [TML] Heaven & Earth Program
In-Reply-To: <47CB3448.3090701@optimum.net>
References: <47CB3448.3090701@optimum.net>
Message-ID: <47CB3F73.2060207@optimum.net>

Kaine wrote:
> I downloaded Heaven & Earth yesterday.  It won't seem to run.  Vista 
> claims that "TwistedPixel.ocx" is missing or corrupted.  I tried 
> removing and reinstalling the program & reinstalling the component as 
> per the read me file.  Is this Vista problem.
>
> Kaine
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML at travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>
>   
Sigh.  It's a Vista problem.  It works on my other computer running XP.

Kaine

From shadow at shadowgard.com  Sun Mar  2 17:50:05 2008
From: shadow at shadowgard.com (shadow at shadowgard.com)
Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2008 16:50:05 -0800
Subject: [TML] Near Star List
In-Reply-To: <3cf5ea650803021414l6d051ebas384ac398f05dce73@mail.gmail.com>
References: <C3F077E7.12C0E%jerry.barrington@gmail.com>,
	<000901c87ca9$f9405800$f82d4b0c@YOURFEDDA97C02>,
	<3cf5ea650803021414l6d051ebas384ac398f05dce73@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47CADABD.30526.27CAD364@shadow.shadowgard.com>

On 2 Mar 2008 at 16:14, Steve Burchett wrote:

> I'm not sure if this will go through, but I've converted it to a Excel file.

*NO* attachments will go thru on the list.


--
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow)
shadow at shadowgard dot com



From jerry.barrington at gmail.com  Sun Mar  2 19:02:54 2008
From: jerry.barrington at gmail.com (Jerry W Barrington)
Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2008 21:02:54 -0500
Subject: [TML] Near Star List
In-Reply-To: <47CADABD.30526.27CAD364@shadow.shadowgard.com>
Message-ID: <C3F0C67E.12C22%jerry.barrington@gmail.com>

On 3/2/08 7:50 PM, "shadow at shadowgard.com" <shadow at shadowgard.com> wrote:

> On 2 Mar 2008 at 16:14, Steve Burchett wrote:
> 
>> I'm not sure if this will go through, but I've converted it to a Excel file.
> 
> *NO* attachments will go thru on the list.

A word of warning on that file:  I just noticed the Magnitude column is
*apparent visual* magnitude.  As such, not very useful.  :P


From samwise1 at msn.com  Sun Mar  2 19:53:59 2008
From: samwise1 at msn.com (Samuel Weiss)
Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2008 21:53:59 -0500
Subject: [TML] SPAM:: Re: Martial Arts
References: <001801c8681a$ec42d360$9784fe04@laptop><000f01c874d3$f8ef8f70$7a4c1f56@DF8Y032J><f495db580802220631i31205d65m4cd9457826310379@mail.gmail.com><002c01c87572$3bd2ee60$16441f56@DF8Y032J><f495db580802221001n130faeabw1d61ebc95820d4c1@mail.gmail.com><001601c87586$5fea30b0$bb4a1f56@DF8Y032J><Pine.LNX.4.58.0802251713060.9509@localhost><47C2C75A.4050306@urbin.net><Pine.LNX.4.58.0802271419080.27353@localhost><BAY106-DAV58C5AD86C246365528197831A0@phx.gbl>
	<f495db580802262323t7b7a88ep5cb0ec0d408fda1e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY106-DAV104476077044E508B8E1AC83170@phx.gbl>

>Good basics are the way to succeed at anything.
Any time I have ever been in an emergency situation including a fight,
I did not feel fear. Before, yes, after yes, but not during the action
of it.

-- 
Douglas E Knapp<

What is there to fear before?
That an emergency situation may occur?

What is there to fear after?
That an emergency situation did occur?

What of either of those is there to fear?

Only the moment holds any danger.
Only the moment requires that degree of awareness.

The absence of fear of foolishness.
It is steadfastness in the face of fear that is courage.


Sam

From webmaster at travellercentral.com  Sun Mar  2 21:23:48 2008
From: webmaster at travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2008 21:23:48 -0700
Subject: [TML] SPAM:: Re: Martial Arts
In-Reply-To: <BAY106-DAV104476077044E508B8E1AC83170@phx.gbl>
References: <001801c8681a$ec42d360$9784fe04@laptop><000f01c874d3$f8ef8f70$7a4c1f56@DF8Y032J><f495db580802220631i31205d65m4cd9457826310379@mail.gmail.com><002c01c87572$3bd2ee60$16441f56@DF8Y032J><f495db580802221001n130faeabw1d61ebc95820d4c1@mail.gmail.com><001601c87586$5fea30b0$bb4a1f56@DF8Y032J><Pine.LNX.4.58.0802251713060.9509@localhost><47C2C75A.4050306@urbin.net><Pine.LNX.4.58.0802271419080.27353@localhost><BAY106-DAV58C5AD86C246365528197831A0@phx.gbl>
	<f495db580802262323t7b7a88ep5cb0ec0d408fda1e@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY106-DAV104476077044E508B8E1AC83170@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <559392B4-58C2-4905-8137-4FC85DF36503@travellercentral.com>


On Mar 2, 2008, at 7:53 PM, Samuel Weiss wrote:

>> Good basics are the way to succeed at anything.
> Any time I have ever been in an emergency situation including a fight,
> I did not feel fear. Before, yes, after yes, but not during the action
> of it.

My wife and i are both post even panickers.  That's the way you want it.

I was amazed to learn recently that Archduke Franz Ferdinand could  
have survived the assassination in Bosnia if someone has just applied  
pressure to his wound, instead of standing around panicking.  He  
basically bled to death because no one thought to try and stop the  
bleeding.

From skaran at bordernet.com.au  Sun Mar  2 21:56:40 2008
From: skaran at bordernet.com.au (Antony Farrell)
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 13:56:40 +0900
Subject: [TML] Near Star List
In-Reply-To: <C3F090CF.12C13%jerry.barrington@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000701c87cea$fe068210$0300a8c0@skaran>

> 
> > Though, I'm not sure what a dG or dM class star is supposed to be. 
> > Might be a typeo or some astronomicial jargon that I'm not 
> familliar 
>  with.
> 
The dG and dM and for that mater dF, dA and dK were all representations for
White Dwarfs the uppercase letter indicating that the temperature range was
of the same order as the main sequence stars of the same letter
classification. I believe it is now thought unlikely that any White Dwrafs
have cooled sufficiently to have become dM type white dwarfs.

Antony

No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition. 
Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.21.3/1306 - Release Date: 1/03/2008
5:41 PM
 


From raikenclw at gmail.com  Sun Mar  2 23:07:42 2008
From: raikenclw at gmail.com (Richard Aiken)
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 01:07:42 -0500
Subject: [TML]  MIniatures/Map Meanderings, was re: Thousand Suns review
Message-ID: <5aca9be50803022207w55c4ea0fh5f2d2e83f7045c06@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Mar 1, 2008 at 7:34 PM, Jerry W Barrington
<jerry.barrington at gmail.com> wrote:
> Otherwise, the combat system seems a little abstract for my taste.
> Personally, I *like* moving miniatures around on a map.  :)

I also like miniatures.  Except mine are usually cardboard.  I used to
think I was pretty much stuck with the GURPS Cardboard Heros.  But
I've recently discovered a whole bunch of different sets available
through DriveThruRPG for just a couple of dollars each.  I'm figuring
to get a couple of robot sets I saw there, then blow up the fronts of
these figures to use as illustrations of common robots for my "Money &
Gear" chapter.  That way, what the characters buy and what their
players see on the combat map will match!

I've also discovered that there are a WHOLE lot of downloadable,
customizable combat-scale building floorplans and ship deckplans . . .
if you use 5 foot squares.  <sigh>  So I'm fairly sure I'll convert.
Not too painful, since these are basically CT 1.5 meter squares.  I
can just look at it as returning to my roots!   Although I'm
definitely not letting eight (8) enemies potentially hack on one (1)
figure.  Only the squares that share sides will count, not those on
the corners!  :)

I even ran across an expandable set that lets you build your own
ships.  They look unstreamlined when done, though, as the "outside" of
each modular deckplan area is all staggered, blocky outlines.
But then it occurred to me that these are reprintable more-or-less
endlessly.  So I could layout a ship that's 80% of whatever nominable
volume I want.  I could then take a ruler and draw straight edges
around the whole thing.  Fill in with black ink and VOILA!  The
deckplan of a streamlined ship!

-- 
Richard Aiken

"Never insult anyone by accident."  Robert A. Heinlein

From tim at little-possums.net  Sun Mar  2 23:43:57 2008
From: tim at little-possums.net (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 17:43:57 +1100
Subject: [TML] Planets in binary systems
In-Reply-To: <C3F060EE.12C09%jerry.barrington@gmail.com>
References: <20080302103512.GG3663@soprano.little-possums.net>
	<C3F060EE.12C09%jerry.barrington@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20080303064357.GI3663@soprano.little-possums.net>

On Sun, Mar 02, 2008 at 01:49:34PM -0500, Jerry W Barrington wrote:
>  I've pretty much concluded from my research that L1 will always be
> closer than L2 or L3, so just being able to find that one would be
> sufficient.  Since it's to be done by computer, I don't mind the
> math being a little ugly.

OK :-)

The L1/2/3 points are where the centripetal acceleration at a given
angular velocity is equal to the gravity from the two bodies.

So let r1,r2 be the orbital radii of the stars from the barycenter,
m1,m2 be their (known) masses, w be the fixed angular velocity of the
system, and R be the (unknown) radius of the L1 point from the
barycenter.  Label the bodies so that m1 < m2 (just so we know which
side of the barycenter L1 is on).

w^2 r1 = G m2 / (r1 + r2)^2
w^2 r2 = G m1 / (r1 + r2)^2
w^2 R = G m2 / (r2 + R)^2 - G m1 / (r1 - R)^2

The first two equations allow us to determine that r2/r1 = m1/m2, and
to make the math easier, let k = 1 + m1/m2.  Then G m2 = w^2 r1^3 k^2
and G m1 = w^2 r1^3 k^2 (k-1).

We're only interested in ratios of distance, so let's make the
substitution R = (1 - u) r1, so that u is the ratio between L1
distance from the smaller body and that body's orbital radius.
Then simplifying the last equation:

1 - u = k^2 / (k - u)^2 - k^2 (k - 1) / u^2

This can be multiplied out into a polynomial (so you don't have to
worry about dividing by zero):

k^2 (u^2 - (k - 1) (k - u)^2) - (1 - u) u^2 (k - u)^2 = 0

Unfortunately degree-5 polynomials generally don't have any formula
for exact solution in terms of common functions.  For any given value
of k it should be fairly easy to solve numerically for u, though.


- Tim

From magick.crow at gmail.com  Mon Mar  3 00:09:45 2008
From: magick.crow at gmail.com (Knapp)
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 08:09:45 +0100
Subject: [TML] SPAM:: Re: Martial Arts
In-Reply-To: <BAY106-DAV104476077044E508B8E1AC83170@phx.gbl>
References: <001801c8681a$ec42d360$9784fe04@laptop>
	<002c01c87572$3bd2ee60$16441f56@DF8Y032J>
	<f495db580802221001n130faeabw1d61ebc95820d4c1@mail.gmail.com>
	<001601c87586$5fea30b0$bb4a1f56@DF8Y032J>
	<Pine.LNX.4.58.0802251713060.9509@localhost>
	<47C2C75A.4050306@urbin.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.58.0802271419080.27353@localhost>
	<BAY106-DAV58C5AD86C246365528197831A0@phx.gbl>
	<f495db580802262323t7b7a88ep5cb0ec0d408fda1e@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY106-DAV104476077044E508B8E1AC83170@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <f495db580803022309l7e4820ccte3469aa6d11d23b@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Mar 3, 2008 at 3:53 AM, Samuel Weiss <samwise1 at msn.com> wrote:
> >Good basics are the way to succeed at anything.
>  Any time I have ever been in an emergency situation including a fight,
>  I did not feel fear. Before, yes, after yes, but not during the action
>  of it.
>
>  --
>  Douglas E Knapp<
>
>  What is there to fear before?
>  That an emergency situation may occur?

Emergency that happen suddenly give you no time to fear before, but
lots of other things do. For example a big test.


>  What is there to fear after?
>  That an emergency situation did occur?

There is the memory and the hormones that are running through you.

>  Only the moment holds any danger.
>  Only the moment requires that degree of awareness.

When you are in the moment and doing, you have no time to feel or
think about fear; the whole world is just focused doing.


>
>  The absence of fear of foolishness.
>  It is steadfastness in the face of fear that is courage.
>
>
>  Sam
>  _______________________________________________
>  TML mailing list
>  TML at travellercentral.com
>  http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>



-- 
Douglas E Knapp
http://sf-journey-creations.wikispot.org/Front_Page

From samwise1 at msn.com  Mon Mar  3 00:36:59 2008
From: samwise1 at msn.com (Samuel Weiss)
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 02:36:59 -0500
Subject: [TML] SPAM:: Re: Martial Arts
References: <001801c8681a$ec42d360$9784fe04@laptop><002c01c87572$3bd2ee60$16441f56@DF8Y032J><f495db580802221001n130faeabw1d61ebc95820d4c1@mail.gmail.com><001601c87586$5fea30b0$bb4a1f56@DF8Y032J><Pine.LNX.4.58.0802251713060.9509@localhost><47C2C75A.4050306@urbin.net><Pine.LNX.4.58.0802271419080.27353@localhost><BAY106-DAV58C5AD86C246365528197831A0@phx.gbl><f495db580802262323t7b7a88ep5cb0ec0d408fda1e@mail.gmail.com><BAY106-DAV104476077044E508B8E1AC83170@phx.gbl>
	<f495db580803022309l7e4820ccte3469aa6d11d23b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY106-DAV182541855109258D791BD83170@phx.gbl>

>Emergency that happen suddenly give you no time to fear before, but
lots of other things do. For example a big test.

So then there is nothing to really fear.
A sudden occurrence is just that - sudden. There is not fear of it.
A test is hardly something relevant when discussing the fear of a fight. Failing a test means not getting a promotion or job at worst, taking it again at least. Failing a fight is considerably more significant.

>There is the memory and the hormones that are running through you.

There is nothing to fear in a memory.
Residual adrenaline just causes the shakes, not fear. I have that. I do not fear twitching uncontrollably.

>When you are in the moment and doing, you have no time to feel or
think about fear; the whole world is just focused doing.

-- 
Douglas E Knapp

That is precisely when you feel and think of the fear.
That is when the danger is present.
That is when you must be aware of the danger.
That is when you must act based on the danger.
That is when you must make the choice.
An unthinking reaction to danger is often the worst possible thing you can do, whether it be submitting to raw instinct or some cold, emotionless, programmed response. The first is a choice between fleeing or charging without control, the second is simply surrendering control another way.


Sam

From jerry.barrington at gmail.com  Mon Mar  3 03:34:04 2008
From: jerry.barrington at gmail.com (Jerry W Barrington)
Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 05:34:04 -0500
Subject: [TML] Planets in binary systems
In-Reply-To: <20080303064357.GI3663@soprano.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <C3F13E4C.12C31%jerry.barrington@gmail.com>

On 3/3/08 1:43 AM, "Timothy Little" <tim at little-possums.net> wrote:

> On Sun, Mar 02, 2008 at 01:49:34PM -0500, Jerry W Barrington wrote:
>>  I've pretty much concluded from my research that L1 will always be
>> closer than L2 or L3, so just being able to find that one would be
>> sufficient.  Since it's to be done by computer, I don't mind the
>> math being a little ugly.
> 
> OK :-)
> 
> The L1/2/3 points are where the centripetal acceleration at a given
> angular velocity is equal to the gravity from the two bodies.
> 
> So let r1,r2 be the orbital radii of the stars from the barycenter,
> m1,m2 be their (known) masses, w be the fixed angular velocity of the
> system, and R be the (unknown) radius of the L1 point from the
> barycenter.  Label the bodies so that m1 < m2 (just so we know which
> side of the barycenter L1 is on).
> 
> w^2 r1 = G m2 / (r1 + r2)^2
> w^2 r2 = G m1 / (r1 + r2)^2
> w^2 R = G m2 / (r2 + R)^2 - G m1 / (r1 - R)^2
> 
> The first two equations allow us to determine that r2/r1 = m1/m2, and
> to make the math easier, let k = 1 + m1/m2.  Then G m2 = w^2 r1^3 k^2
> and G m1 = w^2 r1^3 k^2 (k-1).
> 
> We're only interested in ratios of distance, so let's make the
> substitution R = (1 - u) r1, so that u is the ratio between L1
> distance from the smaller body and that body's orbital radius.
> Then simplifying the last equation:
> 
> 1 - u = k^2 / (k - u)^2 - k^2 (k - 1) / u^2
> 
> This can be multiplied out into a polynomial (so you don't have to
> worry about dividing by zero):
> 
> k^2 (u^2 - (k - 1) (k - u)^2) - (1 - u) u^2 (k - u)^2 = 0
> 
> Unfortunately degree-5 polynomials generally don't have any formula
> for exact solution in terms of common functions.  For any given value
> of k it should be fairly easy to solve numerically for u, though.

Well, I couldn't quite follow some of your substitutions.  You said "R = (1
- u) r1, so that u is the ratio between L1 distance from the smaller body
and that body's orbital radius", but that seems to call for R=u*r1.

But I did find a couple web pages using the formula
    (1-z)^2-kz^2-z^2(1-z)^2((1+k)z-k)=0
where k=m1/m2 and z=R/(r1+r2) [in your units].

So I put that formula into an Excel spreadsheet, with spots to put m1 and m2
and (r1+r2).  Using Goal Seek tool to get the formula (close) to 0 by
changing z gives me a result.  Since Goal Seek seems have a rather arbitrary
precision, I found that multiplying the entire formula by 100,000 made it
find the correct value for equal masses, .50..., instead of 0.50017933232343
or 0.499999986081074.

Putting in Earth and Sun masses and distance, it gets 1,491,555 km (L2 is
listed as 1.5 Gm, and approximately equal to L1, so that sounds good).  The
Hill sphere formula give 1,496,558 km, which is only 5000 more (1:300
parts).

For Earth/Moon, it gives 58,019 km from the Moon.  Hill formula gives
61,524, so that's less than 6% off.

I suspect since the Hill formula is only an approximation anyway, my values
are better.  And they're smaller, and I'm only going to use 2/3 to 1/2 of
*that* value, so it's all good.  :)


From tim at little-possums.net  Mon Mar  3 04:27:09 2008
From: tim at little-possums.net (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 22:27:09 +1100
Subject: [TML] Planets in binary systems
In-Reply-To: <C3F13E4C.12C31%jerry.barrington@gmail.com>
References: <20080303064357.GI3663@soprano.little-possums.net>
	<C3F13E4C.12C31%jerry.barrington@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20080303112709.GJ3663@soprano.little-possums.net>

On Mon, Mar 03, 2008 at 05:34:04AM -0500, Jerry W Barrington wrote:
> Well, I couldn't quite follow some of your substitutions.  You said
> "R = (1 - u) r1, so that u is the ratio between L1 distance from the
> smaller body and that body's orbital radius", but that seems to call
> for R=u*r1.

R is the distance between L1 and the barycentre of the system, not the
distance between body 1 and L1.


> Since Goal Seek seems have a rather arbitrary precision, I found
> that multiplying the entire formula by 100,000 made it find the
> correct value for equal masses, .50..., instead of 0.50017933232343
> or 0.499999986081074.

Yes, spreadsheets aren't exactly the best tools for precision
mathematical analysis.


> I suspect since the Hill formula is only an approximation anyway, my
> values are better.  And they're smaller, and I'm only going to use
> 2/3 to 1/2 of *that* value, so it's all good.  :)

Yes, extreme precision isn't really necessary when it's going to be
divided by some rough factor later :-)


- Tim

From darbyeckles at yahoo.com  Mon Mar  3 07:50:03 2008
From: darbyeckles at yahoo.com (darby eckles)
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 06:50:03 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TML] Strange societys
In-Reply-To: <mailman.770.1204500993.1386.tml@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <47818.38922.qm@web39709.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I've been reading the Vattas War series by Elizebth Moon.  Just finished the 4th book, and in it are these flashy rich guys, who come from a very odd society.  FOr those of you who have read it, of course I'm talking about Ransom's Rangers.  For thos of you who haven't read it:  people in a particular society spend chunks of their lives living in 4 specific "rings" (they call them) or states of living in the world.  One is Irrationalism, where the person is legally considered insane and is expected to act strange, goofy, and, well, irrational.  There is also Rational, which is the direct oppoite of Irrational, where they are expected to be super resposible, etc.  Another "ring" is Romantic.  Not in the lover sense, but in the dashing-sword-wearing-super-adventure-and-flashy-dressing sense.  I don't think they mention the 4th "ring".
  
Anyways, I've been trying to picture how this kind of society could function.  I would think that not everyone would be off on a tear in one of these "rings" at once, that they'd have to be intermitent in someone life in order to absorb the goings on when in that state, and to be reflected on.  I mean, you can't have a whole planet going Irrational or Romantic at once, it just wouldn't tick...
   
  Anybody ever use a highly unusual society in your games?
  
Darby

       
---------------------------------
Never miss a thing.   Make Yahoo your homepage.

From pbrenton at MIT.EDU  Mon Mar  3 08:13:49 2008
From: pbrenton at MIT.EDU (Peter Brenton)
Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 10:13:49 -0500
Subject: [TML] GURPS Traveller Questions :What do I need
Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20080303095925.05375848@po10.mit.edu>

Hi folks,

I'm contemplating returning to traveller after a long hiatus (Hi 
Doug!  Hi Shadow!  Others!).

I'm thinking of a CT style campaign using GURPS rules (mostly because 
the other players are familiar with them, makes it easier), the 
question of the day is how shall I invest my hard earned funds in 
GURPS products to support such a campaign.  I have the Basic book and 
Psionics, the Modern Tech supplement (great for TL7-8 firearms).  I 
have access to, but don't own, Compendium I.

I also have a huge collection of traveller materials spanning the 
systems.  I don't need the background.

So I think I need rules for the following;

Individual Combat resolution (that is, stats for Traveller-type 
weapons and armor)
Vehicle Combat and Design
Starship Combat and design

I need the rules for resolving outcomes of tasks such as sensor ops, 
communications, etc.  A means of designing ships and 
vehicles.  Skills advantages and disadvantages that might be 
customized for the Traveller universe (which I can cull most of from 
the basic book).  What else?

I do NOT need background, library data, maps and charts, scenarios, etc.

Thanks,

Peter Brenton
"A good Traveller has no fixed plans and is not intent on arriving." 
Lao Tzu [Capitalization mine] 


From tom.cusworth at googlemail.com  Mon Mar  3 08:51:36 2008
From: tom.cusworth at googlemail.com (Tom Cusworth)
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 15:51:36 +0000
Subject: [TML] GURPS Traveller Questions :What do I need
In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20080303095925.05375848@po10.mit.edu>
References: <6.2.3.4.2.20080303095925.05375848@po10.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <4b5cc71a0803030751w67600666xd0bb6f8add822383@mail.gmail.com>

You need GURPS Traveller (unless that's the "basic book" you mention... It
has all the chargen and equipment in it...

-Tom

On 03/03/2008, Peter Brenton <pbrenton at mit.edu> wrote:
>
> Hi folks,
>
> I'm contemplating returning to traveller after a long hiatus (Hi
> Doug!  Hi Shadow!  Others!).
>
> I'm thinking of a CT style campaign using GURPS rules (mostly because
> the other players are familiar with them, makes it easier), the
> question of the day is how shall I invest my hard earned funds in
> GURPS products to support such a campaign.  I have the Basic book and
> Psionics, the Modern Tech supplement (great for TL7-8 firearms).  I
> have access to, but don't own, Compendium I.
>
> I also have a huge collection of traveller materials spanning the
> systems.  I don't need the background.
>
> So I think I need rules for the following;
>
> Individual Combat resolution (that is, stats for Traveller-type
> weapons and armor)
> Vehicle Combat and Design
> Starship Combat and design
>
> I need the rules for resolving outcomes of tasks such as sensor ops,
> communications, etc.  A means of designing ships and
> vehicles.  Skills advantages and disadvantages that might be
> customized for the Traveller universe (which I can cull most of from
> the basic book).  What else?
>
> I do NOT need background, library data, maps and charts, scenarios, etc.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Peter Brenton
> "A good Traveller has no fixed plans and is not intent on arriving."
> Lao Tzu [Capitalization mine]
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML at travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>



-- 
Blessed are the cheapskates, for they shall see god and still have change of
a fiver - Tom Holt, Valhalla.

Want Googlemail? Ask me & I'll invite you!

From wmrcameron at gmail.com  Mon Mar  3 10:26:26 2008
From: wmrcameron at gmail.com (Bill Cameron)
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 12:26:26 -0500
Subject: [TML] Strange societys
In-Reply-To: <47818.38922.qm@web39709.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.770.1204500993.1386.tml@travellercentral.com>
	<47818.38922.qm@web39709.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <f7ac2f00803030926g69c60eb6o93a79336d437d9e5@mail.gmail.com>

darby eckles wrote:  "Anyways, I've been trying to picture how this kind of
society could function."


Mr. Eckles,

It won't be able to function because it fails the "Phone Sanitizer"(1) test;
there aren't any people doing the everyday, unsung, unromantic, unsexy jobs
that any society needs doing.  Ms. Moon is writing about an AFFECTATION and
not an actual SOCIETY.

In his "Million Open Doors" series, John Barnes presented system in
which "odd" societies might actually be able to work.  First, a lot of the
dirty work is done by expert systems.  Second, the actual devotees of
whatever artificial cultural nonsense; Nou Occitan, Christian Capitalism,
etc. the society in question "preserves" are primarily YOUNG ADULTS.  After
awhile you're expected to get your fill of duelling over poetry or fashion
and GROW UP, get a job, and have a family.

Of course, odd cultures are what Our Olde Game is all about.  However, any
culture is still going to need phone sanitizers.


Have fun,
Bill

1 - Thank you Douglas Adams, wherever you are.

From johnson at pharmacy.arizona.edu  Mon Mar  3 10:28:38 2008
From: johnson at pharmacy.arizona.edu (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 10:28:38 -0700
Subject: [TML] NY Reload
In-Reply-To: <BE9E40F0-DA8D-4110-ACE9-187AD0647830@travellercentral.com>
References: <5aca9be50802272150j7f4e98f7m3d426a6124915f83@mail.gmail.com>
	<264586.80550.qm@web31902.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<f495db580802292308h482cf57dubd424aab71162b0b@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.58.0803020837130.19272@localhost>
	<BE9E40F0-DA8D-4110-ACE9-187AD0647830@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <D535172D-1B0E-4D98-820A-AD77F277F1E2@pharmacy.arizona.edu>


On Mar 2, 2008, at 8:19 AM, Tod Glenn wrote:

> Carrying an swapping cylinders is basically confined to the Remington
> Army model and no other contemporary civil war era cap and ball.
>
> Contrary to TV and movies, this was probably not a common practice,
> since sales records from Remington show that very few additional
> cylinders were sold with the Army model revolver.

Moreover, it's dangerously easy to smack the exposed caps on something  
in the process, especially under fire, in a hurry. Then you have a  
random cylinder going off while it's in your hands. This isn't  
something I'd try with my Remington NMA under ideal conditions, it's  
just not safe handling a loaded, loose cylinder that way, imo. Tod's  
right...the solution to the reload problem was more revolvers.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From infojunky at ceecom.net  Mon Mar  3 10:30:20 2008
From: infojunky at ceecom.net (Evyn MacDude)
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 09:30:20 -0800
Subject: [TML] GURPS Traveller Questions :What do I need
In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20080303095925.05375848@po10.mit.edu>
References: <6.2.3.4.2.20080303095925.05375848@po10.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <745BFA32-E915-402A-9FBA-ABEBC3AE8C0A@ceecom.net>


On  Mar03 08, at 07:13, Peter Brenton wrote:

> Hi folks,
>
> I'm contemplating returning to traveller after a long hiatus (Hi
> Doug!  Hi Shadow!  Others!).
>
> I'm thinking of a CT style campaign using GURPS rules (mostly because
> the other players are familiar with them, makes it easier), the
> question of the day is how shall I invest my hard earned funds in
> GURPS products to support such a campaign.  I have the Basic book and
> Psionics, the Modern Tech supplement (great for TL7-8 firearms).  I
> have access to, but don't own, Compendium I.

Ok you have 3rd edition, Well Gurps:Traveller pretty much will get  
you started.
which you can get from Warehouse-23 for 10 bucks, 17 after shipping.  
That
should go a long way towards getting you started

> I also have a huge collection of traveller materials spanning the
> systems.  I don't need the background.
>
> So I think I need rules for the following;
>
> Individual Combat resolution (that is, stats for Traveller-type
> weapons and armor)
> Vehicle Combat and Design
> Starship Combat and design
>
> I need the rules for resolving outcomes of tasks such as sensor ops,
> communications, etc.  A means of designing ships and
> vehicles.  Skills advantages and disadvantages that might be
> customized for the Traveller universe (which I can cull most of from
> the basic book).  What else?

Gee, with all the CT sources and a little help from GT I think you  
should
have everything y'all need. Heck with just the Gurps 3rd book without
any other gurps source books you pretty much have it all, it is really
just a case of how much work you want to put in.

As a side note pretty much all of the Gurps 3rd edtion books are going
for a $9.95 a throw on Warehouse23.

And another one, Stargrunt2 from Ground Zero Games which IMHO
is Traveller platoon/company level combat, is available as a free PDF
from their web site. BTW Jon the owner of GZGs and the writer of SG2
cites Traveller as one of his major inspirations when he was writing
the game.

--
Evyn

From magick.crow at gmail.com  Mon Mar  3 11:02:06 2008
From: magick.crow at gmail.com (Knapp)
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 19:02:06 +0100
Subject: [TML] NY Reload
In-Reply-To: <D535172D-1B0E-4D98-820A-AD77F277F1E2@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <5aca9be50802272150j7f4e98f7m3d426a6124915f83@mail.gmail.com>
	<264586.80550.qm@web31902.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<f495db580802292308h482cf57dubd424aab71162b0b@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.58.0803020837130.19272@localhost>
	<BE9E40F0-DA8D-4110-ACE9-187AD0647830@travellercentral.com>
	<D535172D-1B0E-4D98-820A-AD77F277F1E2@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <f495db580803031002n4a159e1cs464d08c24387b8c8@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Mar 3, 2008 at 6:28 PM, Bruce Johnson
<johnson at pharmacy.arizona.edu> wrote:
>
>  On Mar 2, 2008, at 8:19 AM, Tod Glenn wrote:
>
>  > Carrying an swapping cylinders is basically confined to the Remington
>  > Army model and no other contemporary civil war era cap and ball.
>  >
>  > Contrary to TV and movies, this was probably not a common practice,
>  > since sales records from Remington show that very few additional
>  > cylinders were sold with the Army model revolver.
>
>  Moreover, it's dangerously easy to smack the exposed caps on something
>  in the process, especially under fire, in a hurry. Then you have a
>  random cylinder going off while it's in your hands. This isn't
>  something I'd try with my Remington NMA under ideal conditions, it's
>  just not safe handling a loaded, loose cylinder that way, imo. Tod's
>  right...the solution to the reload problem was more revolvers.
>
>  --
>  Bruce Johnson
>  University of Arizona
>  College of Pharmacy
>  Information Technology Group
>
>  Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs
>
I was once told by a firefighter that cartages (is that the right
term? Bullet and shell?) are not very dangerous because the bullet
needs a barrel to get up to speed in. Is this the same for these guns?

-- 
Douglas E Knapp
http://sf-journey-creations.wikispot.org/Front_Page

From jerry.barrington at gmail.com  Mon Mar  3 12:45:26 2008
From: jerry.barrington at gmail.com (Jerry W Barrington)
Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 14:45:26 -0500
Subject: [TML] Planets in binary systems
In-Reply-To: <20080303112709.GJ3663@soprano.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <C3F1BF86.12C3E%jerry.barrington@gmail.com>

On 3/3/08 6:27 AM, "Timothy Little" <tim at little-possums.net> wrote:

> On Mon, Mar 03, 2008 at 05:34:04AM -0500, Jerry W Barrington wrote:
>> Well, I couldn't quite follow some of your substitutions.  You said
>> "R = (1 - u) r1, so that u is the ratio between L1 distance from the
>> smaller body and that body's orbital radius", but that seems to call
>> for R=u*r1.
> 
> R is the distance between L1 and the barycentre of the system, not the
> distance between body 1 and L1.

Ah, Ok.  See, it's the little things that'll get you.  :)  I really should
have drawn this out on paper.

>> Since Goal Seek seems have a rather arbitrary precision, I found
>> that multiplying the entire formula by 100,000 made it find the
>> correct value for equal masses, .50..., instead of 0.50017933232343
>> or 0.499999986081074.
> 
> Yes, spreadsheets aren't exactly the best tools for precision
> mathematical analysis.

True, but I'll probably only use precision to *maybe* +/-.001 AU between
stars up to a few dozen AU apart, so it'll be good enough.  I just like to
start with a few more digits, because I'll also allow for eccentricity.
Although, I suppose I could add that to the spreadsheet at this point.

>> I suspect since the Hill formula is only an approximation anyway, my
>> values are better.  And they're smaller, and I'm only going to use
>> 2/3 to 1/2 of *that* value, so it's all good.  :)
> 
> Yes, extreme precision isn't really necessary when it's going to be
> divided by some rough factor later :-)

Well, it *is* just a game.  :P  The only reason I even started on this was
because it was obvious that a star that weighs 1/10 of it's companion
shouldn't equally split the available orbital space.


From jerry.barrington at gmail.com  Mon Mar  3 13:14:41 2008
From: jerry.barrington at gmail.com (Jerry W Barrington)
Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 15:14:41 -0500
Subject: [TML] NY Reload
In-Reply-To: <f495db580803031002n4a159e1cs464d08c24387b8c8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C3F1C661.12C40%jerry.barrington@gmail.com>

On 3/3/08 1:02 PM, "Knapp" <magick.crow at gmail.com> wrote:

> I was once told by a firefighter that cartages (is that the right
> term? Bullet and shell?) are not very dangerous because the bullet
> needs a barrel to get up to speed in. Is this the same for these guns?

Yes and no.  It needs the barrel to get up to speed to fly 100's to 1000's
of feet.  It doesn't need it to be dangerous.  Kind of like the difference
between shooting a spitwad* from your lips vs. a straw.  The straw (barrel)
gives you much better distance & control.

But think of it this way: the bullet is held to the shell with significant
force (just try pulling one off with your finger sometime!).  So, the
exploding gunpowder is going to achieve significant pressure before it
knocks it off.  All that pressure is on the back end of the bullet, for it's
going to fly off pretty fast.

For the record, the chunk of lead at the end is the bullet.
The metal body is the cartridge, casing, or shell (although shell also
refers to the flying body of an explosive artillery round).
The explosive propellant inside is the charge.
All together, they make a round.

Often, the terms are abused, ie. bullet to mean the round, etc.


* Small wet ball of paper, for people who were never American boys.  I don't
know the equivalent term in the rest of the world


From jerry.barrington at gmail.com  Mon Mar  3 13:24:22 2008
From: jerry.barrington at gmail.com (Jerry W Barrington)
Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 15:24:22 -0500
Subject: [TML] Strange societys
In-Reply-To: <47818.38922.qm@web39709.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <C3F1C8A6.12C43%jerry.barrington@gmail.com>

On 3/3/08 9:50 AM, "darby eckles" <darbyeckles at yahoo.com> wrote:

> I've been reading the Vattas War series by Elizebth Moon.  Just finished the
> 4th book, and in it are these flashy rich guys, who come from a very odd
> society.  FOr those of you who have read it, of course I'm talking about
> Ransom's Rangers.  For thos of you who haven't read it:  people in a
> particular society spend chunks of their lives living in 4 specific "rings"
> (they call them) or states of living in the world.  One is Irrationalism,
> where the person is legally considered insane and is expected to act strange,
> goofy, and, well, irrational.  There is also Rational, which is the direct
> oppoite of Irrational, where they are expected to be super resposible, etc.
> Another "ring" is Romantic.  Not in the lover sense, but in the
> dashing-sword-wearing-super-adventure-and-flashy-dressing sense.  I don't
> think they mention the 4th "ring".
> 
> Anyways, I've been trying to picture how this kind of society could function.
> I would think that not everyone would be off on a tear in one of these "rings"
> at once, that they'd have to be intermitent in someone life in order to absorb
> the goings on when in that state, and to be reflected on.  I mean, you can't
> have a whole planet going Irrational or Romantic at once, it just wouldn't
> tick...
>  
> Anybody ever use a highly unusual society in your games?

I haven't read that one yet (I usually wait for the paperback), but that
society sounds... bizarre.  I'm not sure it *can* work.  And Romantic
doesn't seem far from Irrational anyway.  Societies, by there nature, depend
on structure, expectations of interactions between people.  If a major
percentage of you populations is insane at a given time, and you know
everybody will be at some time, it seems kind of hard to set up a society.

I guess I'll have to get the book as soon as I can.


From eclipse at urbin.net  Mon Mar  3 13:41:09 2008
From: eclipse at urbin.net (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 15:41:09 -0500
Subject: [TML] NY Reload
In-Reply-To: <C3F1C661.12C40%jerry.barrington@gmail.com>
References: <f495db580803031002n4a159e1cs464d08c24387b8c8@mail.gmail.com>
	<C3F1C661.12C40%jerry.barrington@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cb6e0990803031241y112a74ebn6aea342be5a58847@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Mar 3, 2008 at 3:14 PM, Jerry W Barrington
<jerry.barrington at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 3/3/08 1:02 PM, "Knapp" <magick.crow at gmail.com> wrote:
>  > I was once told by a firefighter that cartages (is that the right
>  > term? Bullet and shell?) are not very dangerous because the bullet
>  > needs a barrel to get up to speed in. Is this the same for these guns?

Shortening the barrel reduces muzzle velocity. No barrel, means a lot
of the energy is lost, rather than be being focused toward moving the
bullet.

>  Yes and no.  It needs the barrel to get up to speed to fly 100's to 1000's
>  of feet.  It doesn't need it to be dangerous.  Kind of like the difference
>  between shooting a spitwad* from your lips vs. a straw.  The straw (barrel)
>  gives you much better distance & control.

The Mythbusters TV show "cooked" cartridges in an oven.  When the
powder ignited, the brass case caused more damage to the inside of the
oven than the bullet.  It was moving faster.


>  But think of it this way: the bullet is held to the shell with significant
>  force (just try pulling one off with your finger sometime!).  So, the
>  exploding gunpowder is going to achieve significant pressure before it
>  knocks it off.  All that pressure is on the back end of the bullet, for it's
>  going to fly off pretty fast.
>
>  For the record, the chunk of lead at the end is the bullet.
>  The metal body is the cartridge, casing, or shell (although shell also
>  refers to the flying body of an explosive artillery round).
>  The explosive propellant inside is the charge.
>  All together, they make a round.
>
>  Often, the terms are abused, ie. bullet to mean the round, etc.

>  * Small wet ball of paper, for people who were never American boys.  I don't
>  know the equivalent term in the rest of the world




-- 
-------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
Let me put it this way:
today is going to be a learning experience.
-------------------------------------------------------

From stuart at frew.net.nz  Mon Mar  3 13:59:36 2008
From: stuart at frew.net.nz (Stuart Frew)
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 09:59:36 +1300
Subject: [TML] Strange societys
In-Reply-To: <C3F1C8A6.12C43%jerry.barrington@gmail.com>
References: <47818.38922.qm@web39709.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<C3F1C8A6.12C43%jerry.barrington@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a1c92a9d0803031259r66a204a0lf7f23791b744c3b2@mail.gmail.com>

> > I've been reading the Vattas War series by Elizebth Moon.  Just finished
> the
> > 4th book, and in it are these flashy rich guys, who come from a very odd
> > society.  FOr those of you who have read it, of course I'm talking about
> > Ransom's Rangers.  For thos of you who haven't read it:  people in a
> > particular society spend chunks of their lives living in 4 specific
> "rings"
> > (they call them) or states of living in the world.  One is
> Irrationalism,
> > where the person is legally considered insane and is expected to act
> strange,
> > goofy, and, well, irrational.  There is also Rational, which is the
> direct
> > oppoite of Irrational, where they are expected to be super resposible,
> etc.
> > Another "ring" is Romantic.  Not in the lover sense, but in the
> > dashing-sword-wearing-super-adventure-and-flashy-dressing sense.  I
> don't
> > think they mention the 4th "ring".
> >
> > Anyways, I've been trying to picture how this kind of society could
> function.
> > I would think that not everyone would be off on a tear in one of these
> "rings"
> > at once, that they'd have to be intermitent in someone life in order to
> absorb
> > the goings on when in that state, and to be reflected on.  I mean, you
> can't
> > have a whole planet going Irrational or Romantic at once, it just
> wouldn't
> > tick...
> >
> > Anybody ever use a highly unusual society in your games?


I tend to use aliens for weird societies, I find it helps the players detach
their expectations.
Or perhaps I'm just not very good at weird human societies :^)

I haven't read that one yet (I usually wait for the paperback), but that
> society sounds... bizarre.  I'm not sure it *can* work.  And Romantic
> doesn't seem far from Irrational anyway.  Societies, by there nature,
> depend
> on structure, expectations of interactions between people.  If a major
> percentage of you populations is insane at a given time, and you know
> everybody will be at some time, it seems kind of hard to set up a society.


I haven't read the book but I could see it working if it was accepted states
for people to be in rather than expected states.

For example, I would say a reasonable percentage of people in my real life
society are in the "irrational ring".
They are, mostly, functional but not necessarily, um, efficient at getting
what they want.

Its easier to work with them (them? an implicit assumption about myself :^)
if the vagaries of behaviour are accepted.
Of course there are limits, being a danger to others being one of them.

How does the book cover that?

From jerry.barrington at gmail.com  Mon Mar  3 14:02:03 2008
From: jerry.barrington at gmail.com (Jerry W Barrington)
Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 16:02:03 -0500
Subject: [TML] NY Reload
In-Reply-To: <cb6e0990803031241y112a74ebn6aea342be5a58847@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C3F1D17B.12C46%jerry.barrington@gmail.com>

On 3/3/08 3:41 PM, "Mark Urbin" <eclipse at urbin.net> wrote:

> The Mythbusters TV show "cooked" cartridges in an oven.  When the
> powder ignited, the brass case caused more damage to the inside of the
> oven than the bullet.  It was moving faster.

Yeah, the expanding gas has to escape out 1 end of the casing, so it acts
rather as a mini rocket!


From bjmurray.halfjack at gmail.com  Mon Mar  3 14:07:26 2008
From: bjmurray.halfjack at gmail.com (Brad Murray)
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 13:07:26 -0800
Subject: [TML] Strange societys
In-Reply-To: <a1c92a9d0803031259r66a204a0lf7f23791b744c3b2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <47818.38922.qm@web39709.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<C3F1C8A6.12C43%jerry.barrington@gmail.com>
	<a1c92a9d0803031259r66a204a0lf7f23791b744c3b2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <889263490803031307v2c722194u5780c20ea8aeaa42@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Mar 3, 2008 at 12:59 PM, Stuart Frew <stuart at frew.net.nz> wrote:
>  I tend to use aliens for weird societies, I find it helps the players detach
>  their expectations.
>  Or perhaps I'm just not very good at weird human societies :^)

I find that interpreting a classic Traveller UWP can lead to some
pretty weird societies--something I've come to love. A huge
population, low tech level, charismatic dictatorship ruling an
asteroid belt just begs for an unusual explanation.

-- 
Brad Murray (halfjack)

From Leon.Wu at newswire.ca  Mon Mar  3 14:18:31 2008
From: Leon.Wu at newswire.ca (Leon Wu)
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 16:18:31 -0500
Subject: [TML] Strange societys
In-Reply-To: <889263490803031307v2c722194u5780c20ea8aeaa42@mail.gmail.com>
References: <47818.38922.qm@web39709.mail.mud.yahoo.com><C3F1C8A6.12C43%jerry.barrington@gmail.com><a1c92a9d0803031259r66a204a0lf7f23791b744c3b2@mail.gmail.com>
	<889263490803031307v2c722194u5780c20ea8aeaa42@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <270030C754582B458D8E7BF9EBDE7A4F09FB3107@YTO1VEXC001.ibmcahostedmail.net>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-bounces at travellercentral.com 
> [mailto:tml-bounces at travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Brad Murray
> Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 4:07 PM
> To: The Traveller Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [TML] Strange societys
> 
> On Mon, Mar 3, 2008 at 12:59 PM, Stuart Frew 
> <stuart at frew.net.nz> wrote:
> >  I tend to use aliens for weird societies, I find it helps 
> the players 
> > detach  their expectations.
> >  Or perhaps I'm just not very good at weird human societies :^)
> 
> I find that interpreting a classic Traveller UWP can lead to 
> some pretty weird societies--something I've come to love. A 
> huge population, low tech level, charismatic dictatorship 
> ruling an asteroid belt just begs for an unusual explanation.

I was watching the Duran Duran video "Wild Boys" and was thinking:
massive generation ships, crew/colonists lose technology and over time
devolve into tribes scavenging throughout the ship.

From johnson at pharmacy.arizona.edu  Mon Mar  3 14:19:08 2008
From: johnson at pharmacy.arizona.edu (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 14:19:08 -0700
Subject: [TML] Surprising sea bacteria
In-Reply-To: <C3EDF3A4.12BAF%jerry.barrington@gmail.com>
References: <C3EDF3A4.12BAF%jerry.barrington@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C4945ADC-48F9-4E94-BB01-6DCA4FCF3F58@pharmacy.arizona.edu>


On Feb 29, 2008, at 3:38 PM, Jerry W Barrington wrote:

> Following up the under-sea-sediment bacteria:
> <http://nai.arc.nasa.gov/news_stories/news_detail.cfm?ID=102>
>
> Bacteria which can photosynthesize (in IR) without making O2, and  
> can also
> live without photosynthesis.

I long ago stopped being astounded at what bacteria (and fungi, for  
that matter) can and cannot do.

Short of environments that will destroy them (much above boiling, or  
below freezing..vaccum is ok, as is high-radiation environments, a  
REAL concern for NASA is hitch-hiking bacteria on space probes.) if  
there's a niche or metabolic substrate out there there will be  
bacteria living on it. If there's oxygen present, there will likely be  
fungi living on it and/or the bacteria.

If we don't know about it, like the IR-photosynthesizers above, it's  
usually because we just haven't looked for 'em.

Of course that's what my degree is in, so I was exposed to it a long  
time ago.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From bjmurray.halfjack at gmail.com  Mon Mar  3 14:20:44 2008
From: bjmurray.halfjack at gmail.com (Brad Murray)
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 13:20:44 -0800
Subject: [TML] Strange societys
In-Reply-To: <270030C754582B458D8E7BF9EBDE7A4F09FB3107@YTO1VEXC001.ibmcahostedmail.net>
References: <47818.38922.qm@web39709.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<C3F1C8A6.12C43%jerry.barrington@gmail.com>
	<a1c92a9d0803031259r66a204a0lf7f23791b744c3b2@mail.gmail.com>
	<889263490803031307v2c722194u5780c20ea8aeaa42@mail.gmail.com>
	<270030C754582B458D8E7BF9EBDE7A4F09FB3107@YTO1VEXC001.ibmcahostedmail.net>
Message-ID: <889263490803031320i3feb42d8m6230e77b5f06c05a@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Mar 3, 2008 at 1:18 PM, Leon Wu <Leon.Wu at newswire.ca> wrote:
>  I was watching the Duran Duran video "Wild Boys" and was thinking:
>  massive generation ships, crew/colonists lose technology and over time
>  devolve into tribes scavenging throughout the ship.

Hey add mutations and that's Metamorphosis Alpha! (A 70s game derived
from a Heinlein short).

-- 
Brad Murray (halfjack)

From greg at nokes.name  Mon Mar  3 14:23:59 2008
From: greg at nokes.name (Greg Nokes)
Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 13:23:59 -0800
Subject: [TML] Strange societys
In-Reply-To: <270030C754582B458D8E7BF9EBDE7A4F09FB3107@YTO1VEXC001.ibmcahostedmail.net>
References: <47818.38922.qm@web39709.mail.mud.yahoo.com><C3F1C8A6.12C43%jerry.barrington@gmail.com><a1c92a9d0803031259r66a204a0lf7f23791b744c3b2@mail.gmail.com>	<889263490803031307v2c722194u5780c20ea8aeaa42@mail.gmail.com>
	<270030C754582B458D8E7BF9EBDE7A4F09FB3107@YTO1VEXC001.ibmcahostedmail.net>
Message-ID: <47CC6C6F.2050208@nokes.name>

I ran a D&D game based on the same subject years and years ago. They 
were on a O'Neil Torus - so we had wilderness and stuff even. The 
computers had gone bonkers, and split into several personalities, and 
expected worship in return for good weather and such.

After many sessions when the group had grokked what was going on they 
just about lynched me. "Dammit! you can bring Space into anything!!" was 
the cry.

;)

Leon Wu wrote:
> I was watching the Duran Duran video "Wild Boys" and was thinking:
> massive generation ships, crew/colonists lose technology and over time
> devolve into tribes scavenging throughout the ship.
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML at travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>   


From erisred at bellsouth.net  Mon Mar  3 14:24:18 2008
From: erisred at bellsouth.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 15:24:18 -0600
Subject: [TML] Two-Space Traveller - Second Call
In-Reply-To: <2t41s35i9d2tag3ubk2aqka30rhoe1at2s@4ax.com>
References: <qn0vr3l7r66v59i2nmedv0e9o895pjvp6v@4ax.com>	<002f01c8760c$3a135610$182c4b0c@YOURFEDDA97C02>	<47C07BF3.1070204@gmail.com>
	<2t41s35i9d2tag3ubk2aqka30rhoe1at2s@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <47CC6C82.8010300@bellsouth.net>

Jeff Zeitlin wrote:
> On Sat, 23 Feb 2008 15:02:59 -0500, you wrote:
> 
>> A precis of the setting might be nice.
> 
>> I liked 1889, and I like Traveller, but that tells me nothing about the 
>> setting except in the most oblique terms.
> 
> It's rather difficult to describe succinctly.
> 
> Basically, though, it postulates an alternative method of interstellar
> travel that really is "Age of Sail", in a very literal sense, and
> because of the nature of the interstellar travel medium, technology is
> restricted to Victorian or pre-Victorian levels for interstellar use -
> and because of a knock-on effect defined by the authors, high-tech on a
> planet, while perfectly possible, is potentially extremely vulnerable to
> a TNE-type crash, so many planets elect 'retroculture' and voluntarily
> restrict even planetbound technology to pre-Great War levels.

Jeff, I never really understood how planetside technology was threatened 
by 2-space, so I always scratched my head at the retrotech cultures. I 
guess you couldn't export/import high-tech due to 2-space, but you could 
spread the knowledge that would allow each world to develop it's on 
higher-tech society.  OTOH, I'm perfectly willing to suspend my doubts 
and "go low" in an RPG. :)

Eris

From johnson at pharmacy.arizona.edu  Mon Mar  3 14:25:27 2008
From: johnson at pharmacy.arizona.edu (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 14:25:27 -0700
Subject: [TML] NY Reload
In-Reply-To: <f495db580803031002n4a159e1cs464d08c24387b8c8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5aca9be50802272150j7f4e98f7m3d426a6124915f83@mail.gmail.com>
	<264586.80550.qm@web31902.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<f495db580802292308h482cf57dubd424aab71162b0b@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.58.0803020837130.19272@localhost>
	<BE9E40F0-DA8D-4110-ACE9-187AD0647830@travellercentral.com>
	<D535172D-1B0E-4D98-820A-AD77F277F1E2@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
	<f495db580803031002n4a159e1cs464d08c24387b8c8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <FF0566FC-23EB-46B4-8A26-1D8303AD0A63@pharmacy.arizona.edu>


On Mar 3, 2008, at 11:02 AM, Knapp wrote:

> I was once told by a firefighter that cartages (is that the right
> term? Bullet and shell?) are not very dangerous because the bullet
> needs a barrel to get up to speed in. Is this the same for these guns?

You were given VERY bad information. While the Mythbusters episode  
correctly showed that it was the lighter cartridge that caused more  
damage in cooked-off rounds, either end could kill you based on the  
dents I saw in the ovens...

As for the Remington NMA, when a ball is properly loaded with the  
correct amount of powder in mine, there's approximately 1/4"-1/2" or  
so of chamber left (usually that's filled with a blob of grease, I've  
never actually measured it, and it's been years since I fired mine) so  
it would be more dangerous than a cartridge.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From Leon.Wu at newswire.ca  Mon Mar  3 14:26:58 2008
From: Leon.Wu at newswire.ca (Leon Wu)
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 16:26:58 -0500
Subject: [TML] Strange societys
In-Reply-To: <889263490803031320i3feb42d8m6230e77b5f06c05a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <47818.38922.qm@web39709.mail.mud.yahoo.com><C3F1C8A6.12C43%jerry.barrington@gmail.com><a1c92a9d0803031259r66a204a0lf7f23791b744c3b2@mail.gmail.com><889263490803031307v2c722194u5780c20ea8aeaa42@mail.gmail.com><270030C754582B458D8E7BF9EBDE7A4F09FB3107@YTO1VEXC001.ibmcahostedmail.net>
	<889263490803031320i3feb42d8m6230e77b5f06c05a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <270030C754582B458D8E7BF9EBDE7A4F09FB313D@YTO1VEXC001.ibmcahostedmail.net>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-bounces at travellercentral.com 
> [mailto:tml-bounces at travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Brad Murray
> Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 4:21 PM
> To: The Traveller Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [TML] Strange societys
> 
> On Mon, Mar 3, 2008 at 1:18 PM, Leon Wu <Leon.Wu at newswire.ca> wro